Armenian Americans have served honorably in the American armed forces since at least the Civil War.

In WWII, Ernest Dervishian of Virginia won the Congressional Medal of Honor for gallantry in saving his men from withering machine gun fire at Anzio;

Harry Kizirian of Providence won the Navy Cross on Okinawa
by saving a wounded Marine and a litter party with his BAR, even though critically injured.

Victor Maghakian of Fresno became a Marine Corps legend before World War II by breaking the jaw of a drunk Japanese officer who spat on him in a bar in China; thereafter he won a Navy Cross for commando action on Makin Island, in which he shot down an escaping seaplane full of brass hats with his .45.

Two books have been written by Richard Demirjian. All in all, about 25,000 served in WWII alone.

More Heroics From Behind the Gates of Coto:

When he is not insulting the Christian Dead of Anatolia (including the Armenian and Assyrian women and children) for treason, Mr K feels it is safe to insult posters freely.

So one poster, after being called a coward, did what any normal red blooded American male would do:

he challenged fat Ergun to box three rounds, no helmets. Ergun is amazingly unresponsive. He is probably

ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI wrote:

In my honest opinion, if a person engaged in a serious debate, hides behind a facade of fake names and cannot bravely post his/her open name, like I always did and stil do, then that person is a worthless coward without shame or honor.

Being a member of some respectable institution does not cure one's cowardice; on the contrary, that coward may dishonor the whole establishment.
If history is any guide, I guess secrecy is needed for future backstabbing, after all.

Ergun,

Pick the date place and time.

I am sure they trained you to fight in the Turkish Army.

So prove to all your 85 year old nut job pals what a brave guy you are.

Man to man.

The referee will protect you.

Ergun,

Before you tell me you have fibromyalgia or really bad allergies, take the boxing challenge. I won't kill you, we can have a Marine Corps DI be the ref. He'll protect you.

Of course, I am sure you won't want him to be Arabic, Serbian, Montenegrin, British, French, Assyrian, Mexican, Armenian, Greek, Australian,
or have had any ancestors who fought in WWI, and I recall you think American Protestants owe you an apology too. And you probably have a gripe against damn near anyone else, too.

Well, how about if we let you wear a helmet over the combover.

By the way, do the Mexican American employees, servants and customers you deal with at home and at work know you insult Mexicans as Spreedy Gonzalez and remind them not to do things as they are done in Tijuana?

I am sure they do. Maybe you should switch to some nice Albanian servants.

Even though they and their families have been here since the late 16th Century and you got off the cruise ship a few years ago?

A coward who loves hiding behind fake names to dishonor Marines and a Speedy, the loveble tricky rat...

What a winning combination!

We have donated two fully-equipped ambulences to Mexico after the earthquake. What have you done for Mexico, Speedy? Other than bad-mouthing and defaming them?

This is my first and last say on this essay because my essay says it all for me. I am 100% behind it. We already collected 26,000 signatures (Can you count that high Speedy?)

I will keep posting on Speedy's first hit-n-run job, because I am not finished there, yet.

I have the following questions for you, Speedy :

1) The good girl exposed your habit of renting hookers. Does your editor know about this addiction of yours?

2) Does your editor approve of your habit of renting-hookers? (Does he, in any way, join you in this endeavor of yours?)

3) Does your mother know about this habit of yours? After all, you still live with your mother at age 28, quoting the good girl here, correct?

4) Do the readers of this column--, all ten of them--approve of your your habit of renting-hookers?

5) Do Orange County residents approve of your habit of renting-hookers?

6) Do Americans in general approve of your habit of renting-hookers?

7) Did you have your sense of shame surgically removed?

8) How can you lie, distort, falsify and still stay in business? (Case in point: your evaluation of my essays, or rather lack of it.)

9) You still didn't tell me what your connection to Armenians is. Do you get paid any money (salary, benefits, discounts, awards, book sales, promotions, and others) directly or indirectly by Armenians?

Ergun,

Before you tell me you have bad allergies or some other lame excuse, take the boxing challenge. I won't kill you, we can have a Marine Corps DI be the ref. He'll protect you.

Of course, I am sure you won't want him to be Arabic, Serbian, Montenegrin, British, French, Assyrian, Mexican, Armenian, Greek, Australian, Persian, Greek Cypriot, Alewi, Kurdish,
or have had any ancestors who fought in WWI. or be a Protestant, or a Shia.

I guess that leaves Eskimos.

Your physical cowardice is what I expected.

Ergun,

Your physical cowardice is on display.

I am sure someone will start reposting it on all your Turkish propaganda sites. Every time you call Armenians now or then cowardly, up will pop this little exchange.

I thought Turks were brave. Those I have met were.

Are you really a Turk or a pretend one?

Thank you, Mr. Arellano. It's important to shine a light on Mr. Kirlikovali (and others of the sort) and his bigotry. I wonder what Mr. Hahn thinks of this, if he's been made aware of it.

_

Mr. Kirlikovali,

Irrespective of your views about the Armenian Genocide and history of comments thereof, you owe Mr. Arellano an apology for your scurrilous "Speedy Gonzalez" remark; he's reporting the facts, whether you agree with those facts or not. It's the least that you could do.

See how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by his ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?

See how they cannot add any ideas, thoughts, facts, figures, or other such input, because they do not have any, other than memorized Armenian propaganda material and how they are reduced to ridicule, insults, slander, intimidation, and threats?

You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:

“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history?”

On the war with Turkey, didn’t Katchaznouni say on pages 9-10 the following:

«… The war with us was inevitable... We had not done all that was necessary for us to have done to evade war. We ought to have used peaceful language with the Turks...We had no information about the real strength of the Turks and relied on ours. This was the fundamental error. We were not afraid of war because we thought we could win... When the skirmishes had started the Turks proposed that we meet and confer. We did not do so and defied them. Our army was well fed and well armed and [clothed] but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions; they threw away their arms and dispersed in the villages. Our army was demoralized during the period of internal strife, the inane destruction and the pillage that went [on] without punishment. It was demoralized and tired. The system of roving bands, which was especially encouraged by the Bureau government, was destroying the unity of the military organization...»

And this?

«… In spite of the fact that the Armenians had better material and better support, their armies lost. Although Armenian politicians and writers had, for years, criticized the Ottoman Government for not making military service obligatory for the Armenians, there were no Moslems in the army of the Armenian Republic. And the advancing Turks fought only against the regular soldiers; they did not carry the battle to the civilian sector. Edward Fox, the American District Commander at Kars, in a telegram, dated October 31, 1920, to Admiral Bristol, the U.S. High Commissioner in Istanbul, wrote that the Americans were continuing their work of looking after the Armenian children as before, that the Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and that there had not been any massacres. Such missionary and philanthropic establishments protected only the children of Armenians, and never the thousands of Turkish children, who had become orphans on account of Armenian massacres of their parents and families....»
(Source: The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The First PM of Armenia:“The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing To Do Any More”, Translated from the original by Matthew A. Callender; Edited by John Roy Carlson (Arthur A. Derounian); Published by the Armenian Information Service ; Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22, 1955 ; Electronic format available at : www.ataa.org .)

Ergun Kirlikovali

Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides

www.turkla.com

what about your little cowardice problem,

Ergun?

Should I offer to pay you money to put on the gloves? Is that what it takes?

Will the 40 plus Mexican employees of your company enjoy watching a safe but real boxing match?

I'll pay for the transport. Or you can agree to have a ring installed at your factory.

Ergun, you crack me up! First off, as you no doubt already know, you will NOT continue leaving comments on my first post about you, because you can't—we've disabled comments on that post. Don't go off whining about censorship: the Weekly does this from time to time to make sure posts don't get unwieldy after a while, and for record-keeping (gracias, btw, for helping me break the previous Navel Gazing record!). But do feel free to continue spewing your bile here.

As for your prostitution charge against me...readers: Ergun refers to this comment, and anyone who hates the Weekly knows that their favorite dismissive charge against us are the sexy ads we post in the back. Ergun thought the anonymous comment meant I patronized hookers—funny! So, if someone were to make the same charge against you, Ergun, I should believe it? For the record: no prostitutes for me. Sorry.

My evaluations of your "essays" are spot-on: they're comedy! If you think I've lied, go pursue the charge with my editor.

Regarding Armenians influencing me: don't you, o obsessive Ottoman of Orange County, remember I answered this looooooooong ago?

But, back to one of the points in the post: Care to apologize to our Armenian-American war vets?

Final point for this round: I find it funny that you accuse some commentators here of "hiding behind fake names." I do commend you for standing behind every comment with your name, but you might want to tell that to those on your side. For the record: jda and 1915AGHistory are separate individuals, according to our records.

coward

About the Hovhannes Katchaznouni booklet:

1. Its authenticity is in question to this day; and it is reasonable to have the notion that it may be a Turkish invention, given the history of denial by the Turkish state.

2. The booklet (of the English translation) is from a Turkish translation of a supposedly Russian-language original that a Turkish "historian" by the name of Mehmet Perincek discovered in the Russian State Library (Moscow). You make of that what you will.

So, then, where is the original for all to dissect? Why isn't this a point of discussion among scholars on both sides?

Ataturk's loudmouth

the coward repairs to his gated community to await inspiration.

Maybe Mein Kampf, a best seller in Turkey today, or a dvd like Valley of the Wolves, [a wildly antisemitic and anti American movie hit in Turkey, in which Americans and Israelis steal Iraqi organs from innocent civilians until brave Turks set things right] will help you organize your thoughts.

I'm betting on a longer than usual post starting off with how the Seljuk and Ottoman conquests were actually intended to be a war of liberation for the benefit of the always ungrategul Anatolian Christians.

Ergun,

I'm still waitiing to confront the man who called me a coward, yet cannot defend his words with his fists in a regulated and fair boxing match.

Are we going to have to make it some fatboy sport?

Like all loudmouths and bullies, you back off when confronted.

I read your defamation of Arellano.

Are you aware that accusing someone of committing a crime, in this violating case Penal Code Section 647b, and related crimes againnst public morality, is defamation per se, and that Gustavo does not need to prove economic damages arising from them?

I suggest you retract before he asks a Lebanese-Armenian attorney to investigate a civil defamation case against you.

By the way, MALDEF is about 1,000 times bigger than TALDF.

By the way, the jury would be allowed to read all of the Speedy Gonzalez and Tijuana comments as evidence of actual malice if you make out a claim that he is a public figure under Gertz.

I think these little facts should be posted on your websites everytime you bravely call murdered Armenian women and children "terrorists".

jda: It's all good that Ergun calls me Speedy in every single comment directed at me, as that immediately tells readers what kind of intellectual mouse, as it were, the guy is!

There is widespread pattern of racism, and I would like well-meaning Turks, whom I believe are the majority, no matter how denialist, to see the racism.

His comments against you about prostitution are potentially actionable.

Can't the Turkish lobby find a better rep?

Mr Kirlikovali's name appears, and apparently has appeared for a while on a MEMRI petition website denouncing antisemitism inTurkey:

LA PÉTITION: «Tolérance zéro face à l'antisémitisme»
(Publiée par le magazine (socialiste) Birikim dans son numéro d'octobre 2004, et signée par des intellectuels tucs de toutes les religions)

«Tant qu'un danger n'est pas clairement formulé, on ne peut rien faire contre. En outre, les termes flous ne font qu'occulter le mal.

Nous, signataires, souhaitons attirer l'attention sur l'éternel antisémitisme turc, qui gagne régulièrement du terrain en Turquie, et faire part de nos observations et préoccupations à toutes les personnes intéressées.
Les différents cas de violence raciste et de discrimination à l'encontre de citoyens non-turcs, non-musulmans et non-sunnites de République turque ont été dénoncés et condamnés, même si ce n'est que de façon limitée, alors que l'antisémitisme demeure, à quelques rares exceptions près, un problème tu, sous-estimé ou tout bonnement nié.

«Les publications sont devenues des véhicules de confusion face à des concepts comme le nazisme, le fascisme, le sionisme, l'Holocauste, le génocide, etc., les vidant de leur sens et brouillant leurs différences. Elles minimisent l'Holocauste en niant son aspect historique unique, donnant ainsi le feu vert à sa réfutation.

La spécificité historique de l'antisémitisme, la facilité avec laquelle il se répand, à travers toutes les classes sociales et tous les milieux culturels, fait qu'il doit être traité séparément. Nous souhaitons souligner qu'un large secteur de la gauche, dont le milieu militant pour les droits de l'Homme, ne mentionne pas dans son programme l'antisémitisme comme menace spécifique – et quand il se voit obligé d'affronter le problème, se contente de la placer sous la rubrique «antisémitisme», en ignorant la force.

Cette situation illustre le fait que l'antisémitisme ne se limite pas à saluer Hitler mais revêt plusieurs visages différents.

Il semble évident que quand il devient impossible de rendre compte de la complexité du monde, «l'autre – ennemi» est créé et isolé. Les Juifs ont été dans le passé, et sont encore aujourd'hui, la cible de ce «besoin», besoin qui porte un nom!

L'antisémitisme actuel est activement diffusé par la presse islamiste dont une grande partie pousse l'audace jusqu'à faire l'éloge de la 'prévoyance' d'Adolf Hitler. Parallèlement, un étalage sans précédent de publications et de campagnes contre les 'sabbataïstes' a vu le jour, sabbataïstes dont les origines juives sont exposées d'une façon qui rappelle l'obsession nazie de créer une 'race pure'; ils sont désignés comme étant les membres malveillants d'une secte secrète qui participerait au 'complot juif pour dominer le monde'.

Cette vague d'antisémitisme a pu progresser sans rencontrer d'obstacles dans les canaux islamistes ainsi que dans les principaux médias, pour s'installer dans la vie et le discours de tous les jours des Turcs. C'est devenu une seconde nature de voir 'le doigt des Juifs' derrière chaque pierre et d'inventer différentes théories de complot ayant 'le Juif' pour méchant.

Nous proclamons par la présente notre opposition aux hypothèses antisémites envahissantes non remises en question, ainsi que notre détermination à atteindre un [niveau] de TOLÉRANCE ZÉRO FACE À L'ANTISÉMITISME, notre détermination à nous informer, à nous opposer, à écrire, à dessiner, à élever la voix et à demeurer solidaires de tous ceux qui sentent et pensent comme nous.»

Did he sign it?

Onl the hero of Coto can tell.

,

Here is a list of names following a three year old MEMRI petition denouncing antisemitism inTurkey. Looks like ergun at least sees this issue clearly:

Ridvan Akar, Taner Akçam, Dogan Akhanli, Mustafa Akyol, Ishak Alaton, Necmiye Alpay, Selim Amado, Çagatay Anadol, Nazmi Arif, David Arditi, Ergun Arslan, Huseyin Aygul, Esin Ayral, Laleper Aytek, Rifat N. Bali, Beki Bardavid, Suleyman Bardavid, Ali Ihsan Basgul, Moiz Bayer, Lizi Behmoaras, Jacob Bensason, Jacques E. Botton, Nukte Devrim Bouvard, Cem Bozsahin, Fatma Mefkure Budak, Belgin Cengiz, Oral Çalislar, Hacer Çinar, Ahmet Dag, Huseyin Dagdas, Gulder Demir, Hulya Demir, Aynur Demirdirek, Hulya Demirdirek, Seyda Demirdirek, Aycan Demirel, Fuat Dundar, Tevfit Erhat, Jak Esim, Jenny Eskinazi, Nesi Eskinazi, Yusuf Estroti, Mose Farsi, Hacer Yildirim Foggo, Çetin Gabay, Rezzan Gabay, Eli Gerson, Gamze Tokol Goldsman, Volkan Granit, Corry Gorgu, Refik Gullu, Ayse Gunaysu, David Hasday, Emintelel Isikli, Yuruk Iyriboz, Aydan Kalaçlar, Dina Karako, Sema Karaoglu, Isa Karatas, Asude Kayas, Erdal Kaynar, Gulay Kiliçdogan, Ergun Kirlikovali, Sevil Kivan, Kursad Kiziltug, Burçe Klaynman, Hayim I. Krespin, M. Mustafa Kulu, Ahmet Kurt, Jaan Latif, Recep Marasli, Ceki Medina, Amy Mills, Gul A. Minci, Avram Mizrahi, Eti Motola, Ozcan Mutlu, Akin Olgun, Haluk Oral, Mordo Ovadya, Mentes Aziz Oz, Mahmut Esat Ozan, Ayse Oktem, Kerem Oktem, Ayse Onal, Canan Ozadam, Gencer Ozcan, Yelda Ozcan, Mehmet Mihri Ozdogan, Noyan Ozkan, Ester Ruben, Murat Ruben, Rafael Sadi, Selim Salti, Defne Sandalci, Selim Sanje, Fatma Sayman, Melih Sisa, Semra Somersan, Haldun Sural, Nora Seni, M. Orhan Tarhan, Ulfet Tayli, Sirin Tekeli, Sule Toktas, Saime Tugrul, Sureyya Turhan, Akil Ulukaya, Momo Uzsinay, Nessim Weissberg, Deniz Yucel, Ragip Zarakolu, and Yaprak Zihnioglu.

Ergie, your name is in good company.I knew you must have some decency.

Speedy,

I do not reply to cowards who hide behind fake names. They are not worth my time.

I appreciate the fact that you are brave enough to use your own name. However, I do not wish to make you famous.

Thanks you for the love, but I don;t like it when people censor my thoughts...

Adios, amigo!

the korkak runs away

That's Turkish for coward.

A comon expression in Turkey is "korkak yehudi" for 'cowardly jew". Everyone uses it, and Turkish jewws have it said in their face frequently.

Ergun,

I will be happy to identify myself privately to you, i only ask you accept the boxing challenge.

Ergie,

You responded dozens of times to my anonymous posts.What's different now is that your physical cowardice is on display.
Run away, as monty Pythons say.

the great son of Balkan Turks, of Ataturk, runs away from having to defend his insults with his fists in a ring. Korkak.

I bet someof those crusty Armenian-haters you idolize would be ashamed of you.

I am sure they will see these exchanges everytime you profane the memory of the innocent dead.

And what will all those Mexican employees think of you when they see the slurs?
I won't tell them - they'll find it all on the net when they run your name.

Auf Wiedersehen,

Korkak

Mr. Kirlikovali,

It must be hell living with all that hate inside of you!

According to this report, Peter Gabriel has joined the apology campaign:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/home/10586817.asp?gid=244

Ergun: We have NEVER censored your comments, as vile as they are. Not the bigoted insults, not the lies about me—none. If you don't like that we closed down comments on my original post about you, even though I explained that it's something the Weekly does from time to time in order to make posts more readable for readers (for instance, I once sent jda an email requesting he not post loooooooong articles because they're unwieldy), that's your right, but it's not censorship.

Poor wittle Error-gun can't play when a non-Armenian tells it like it is? Your ancestors would've laughed at you!

yes Gess hye em

day 3 of silence from loudmouth korkak

Oh, Error-gun won't respond, but that's expected. What I'm more surpised at is where are all the Turks who commented on the previous post? Come on, Turks: defend your champion! Do you agree with Error-gun's position that Armenians can't be trusted to serve in the American military? Do you agree with his baseless defamation of a reporter? Who amongst you will critizice Errror-gun. I know the answer: none of you. As the commentator above says: KORKAK all of you!

will we denounce the khents on our side?

Khents on "our" side? If you mean within the context of the Armenian Genocide, such as?

JDA,

Respectfully, I don't believe that you know or understand the Turkish people as well as you think that you do. Ergun Kirlikovali isn't in the minority; he's in the majority. There are millions upon millions of people just like him. That's from a country with a population of 70-plus million; and there are more in other parts of the world. Most of them would be honored to finish the genocidal campaign that their ancestors weren't able to. Don't be so optimistic in the face of harsh reality. Reality requires that you face it head on, regardless of the circumstances. The reality for our people is that the majority of Turks hate us. Our people view the Turks as we do because our history with them, from the past and to the present, guides us. Hrant Dink wasn't murdered 20 years ago, and it wasn't a random act.

It is nuts to wrote all Turks off. Their government, deep state and establishment are both racist and terrified of the non Turk. A prominent General last week said Pkk was Armenian; a legislator said Gul's mother was Armenian merely because he did not initially condemn the apology petition.
Starting about 7 years ago half of them started figuring out granny was a kidnapped Armenian.
I think it is nuts to treat them badly when we meet them here. For every bozo like Ergun there are 10
We can talk to civilly.

Jda,

"For every bozo like Ergun there are 10 We can talk to civilly."

I disagree. Taner Akcam is tantamount to an archaeological find; he's a rarity.

It has been reported that Abdullah Gul is going to file a charge against the beast that claimed his mother (Or was it grandmother?) as an Armenian. You see, "Armenian" is a racial slur in Turkey. Janan Aritman (member of the Republican People's Party) was insulting Gul by referring to his mother as an Armenian. Gul, like the "good Turk" that he is (and it's been reported that he isn't a Turk by blood, in terms of ethnic origin), must be so insulted by the allegation that he has to file a charge against her.

These people speak for the Turkish masses.

Yes, I agree that casual as well as deep seated racism is as common there as similar racism was once common here against Blacks. I must know 20 Bolsa Hye families living here, LA, Toronto and NY who left for that reason.

However, as of yesterday,
20,000 Turks signed the azpology petittion. Tens of thousands marched aftyer Hrant Dink's killing. Things changed here, and they may change there.

Can is a racist pure and simple. If you read Hurriyet and TDN, now combined, you see that three columnists called her a racist

I urge you to review Dink's writings. He loved our Anatolian home, and was proud of Turkish citizenship, feelling that the Armenians were an important if reviled part. He had no dread of Turks, and called many his brother. He judged them as individuals.

I base my experience upon my contacts with Turks here and in Europe. They often tend to be well-educated and cosmopolitan, see e.g. the new head of the German greens, or several others in the public view.

I think that when we meet these people we should treat them as individuals, and make our judgments on the basis of their character, words and behavior, not the mere fact that they are Turks.

And yes, when they have stories of family loss they attribute to Greeks, Armenians or the Russians etc., we should listen as politely as we want them to listen. These stories do not negate Genocide, and we need to listen to them and take them seriously.

Ergun displays his idiocy daily by treating all Armenians as if they were particles of an evil ethnic entity, when the truth is we are all different too. Seeing the other as "the Turk" inhibits the kind of human contact that may help make life for our brothers and sisters inTurkey and Hayastan better.

The racists we abhhor, ridicule and reject; the open minded we meet and talk to.

There is nothing in our Christian heritage that sanctions hate or prejudice.

Besides, they make good Armenian food in Ysytanbul.

Ergun,

Are you on Gul's side or the racist Aritamn's side:

CHP deputy sticks to stance despite criticism

ANKARA - President Gül hails the apology initiative as proof of Turkey’s democratic health, while Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the military and the CHP oppose the campaign, saying the consequences will be harmful

Despite a written warning from her party, the Republican People’s Party, or CHP, deputy Canan Arıtman has decided to move ahead with controversial claims over the weekend concerning alleged Armenian roots of the president.

"If I had seen the president, I would have hurled a shoe at him," Arıtman was quoted as saying, referring to the recent protest of the Iraqi journalist who threw his shoe at outgoing U.S. President George W. Bush.

Kirlikovali, oh great one:

Son, you're just all over the internet these days. I guess that for every thousand more who sign the petition, you just feel compelled to write something stupid. And I just feel compelled to point it out. Holidays, slow week. 20,000 signers so far.

I was intrigued that you wrote that you would like the entire United Kingdom, including Cardiff, Wales and the Guernsey Islands, to apologize personally to you.

And for what? Monty Python? Marmite?

You screech that the 1916 Blue Book report produced by the British Government was propaganda. It probably did get little old ladies in Coventry upset, what with its graphic depiction of Ottoman state actors killing babies and all. But that does not make it an unreliable or erroneous report. Sometimes one's enemies do commit inhuman acts, see e.g. German war crimes, for example.

Sometimes the Turkish ultranationalists step on their own tiny dicks. That's an American colloquial expression meaning they make a needless mistake. One mistake was their 2005 demand that the British House of Lords renounce the 1916 Blue Book report. If they had just shut up, they would have left the report forgotten. But no, they had to make their parliament to parliament demands.

You know what happened - the House of Lords refused, chiefly on the strength of documentation collected by Ara Sarafian.

Maybe I should ask your Mexican workers to take up a collection to buy the book for you.

Here are the details:

James Bryce and Arnold Toynbee, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915–1916: Documents Presented to Viscount Grey of Fallodon by Viscount Bryce [Uncensored Edition], edited and with an introduction by Ara Sarafian

ISBN 1-903656-51-6

(2nd edition 2005)

xxii + 677 pages, hardback, map (insert), index.

Price: UK£45.00 / US$70.00 plus shipping.

Table of contents

In 1916 the British Parliament published a "Blue Book" that identified the events of 1915–16 as a systematic effort to exterminate the Armenian people. The Blue Book has been one of the most solid and influential sources on the Armenian Genocide. A critical, uncensored edition, edited and with an introduction by Ara Sarafian, has now been published by the Gomidas Institute.

Viscount James Bryce and Arnold Toynbee were commissioned to prepare the Blue Book, which is formally known as The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915–1916. Toynbee carefully compiled and verified dozens of eyewitness accounts from different parts of the Ottoman Empire. These accounts provided the basis for Bryce’s brilliant thesis on the Genocide, published while the crime was still in progress.

The book includes eyewitness accounts from United States consular and missionary sources, as well as the testimony of German, Italian, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Greek, Kurdish, and Armenian witnesses.

The original publication was full of blanks: the names of many people and places were obscured in order to safeguard sources still in the Ottoman Empire. The names remain obscured in facsimile editions that have been published over the years. Now Sarafian has restored the obscured names.

In his introduction, Sarafian takes issue with the repeated assertions of Turkish nationalist authors, who claim that the Blue Book was a British propaganda fabrication. He demonstrates the intellectual pedigree of the work. He shows exactly how testimonies were collected, authenticated, and then used in the book.

Generations of official historians of Turkey, such as Enver Zia Karal (Ankara University), Salahi Sonyel (British historian and public activist), Ismail Binark (Director of Ottoman archives, Ankara), Sinasi Orel (director of a much publicized project on declassifying documents on Ottoman Armenians), Kamuran Gurun (former diplomat), Mim Kemal Oke, Justin McCarthy, and others have cited the Blue Book and have insisted that it lacks credibility.

Sarafian has located Toynbee’s original manuscript, Toynbee’s correspondence with his sources, and most of the original reports, which were copied and sent to London. They can still be found at the Public Record Office (Kew), Bodleian Library (Oxford), National Archives (Washington, D.C.), Library of Congress (Washington, D.C.), and the Houghton Library (Cambridge, Mass.) He has established that the compilers were meticulous in their verification of sources.

According to the Times Literary Supplement (London), "This work emerges from Ara Sarafian’s examination as documentation of a high order. . . . Sarafian convincingly rebuts the claims that there was any falsification, or that any of the documents was one-sided British propaganda."

Lord Avebury of the British House of Lords has welcomed the publication of this critical edition of the Blue Book. Excoriating the present-day British government for refusing to recognize the Armenian Genocide, "ostensibly for a lack of evidence," Lord Avebury notes that "the British Foreign Office itself published such evidence as early as 1916. . . . Ara Sarafian should be commended for making a critical edition of The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire available to the public."

Toynbee, who went on to be a major historian in his own right, was deeply moved by his research on the Genocide. In his 1967 memoir, Acquaintances, Toynbee wrote: "My study [of the Armenian Genocide] . . . left an impression on my mind that was not effaced by the still more cold-blooded genocide, on a far larger scale, that was committed during the Second World War by the Nazi.

"Any great crime—private or public, personal or impersonal—raises a question that transcends national limits; the question goes to the heart of human nature itself. My study of the genocide that had been committed in Turkey in 1915 brought home to me the reality of Original Sin," Toynbee concluded.

Erie,

since Turks have only Turks as friends, and Turks are strong and honest etc.,

1. why do you live in my country?

Question 2:

Why don't the nationalists come up with someone smarter than you? Are you supposed to be American-like because you wear baseball hats around Coto?

Question 3:

You say that it is racist even to use the term "Armenian Genocide." So, was Ronald Wilson Reagan a racist anti-Turk?

Grey Wolves,
Junior and Ladies Auxiliary
Trabzon,
Glorious Republic of Turkey

Dear Sirs,

I have been a faithful adherent of all of the important tenets of our Turkish Grey Wolf philosophy and practices.

I have called the Christians treacherous murderers, and this includes even the babies. The wife doesn't like that part. I even blamed the United Sattes for saying there was a Christian genocide back in 1916. I mean, I gotta live in this country.

I have posted daily questions from my Acme book of Genocide denial quotes. I have faithfully quoted the fat professor endlessly. I even got near him a few times, jeez, can that guy talk inbetween eating up our glorious Ataturk level hors d'eovres. Don't stand inbetween him and anything edible.

And yet, and yet, I am not a real member, even of the junior and womens auxiliary.People think I am a fake, a yalanci if you will.

Dear sirs, please expedite my application.

Were you not impressed with my column that said Hrant Dink was killed by an Armenian? How'bout my "I do not apologize" piece. I hear that was a real hit with the cops in Trabzon.

Ok, so maybe you heard about my backing away from defending myself from the California Marine who challenged me. Look, I was excused from combat training while in the Army, so I am willing to hire one of yu to do it for me.

Your lap dog,

Ergun

p.s. Please send me the Samast with smiling cops poster.

OPEN RACISM IN TURKEY TODAY

Ergun,

Do you agree with Parliamentarian Can Aritman that Armenians are the eternal enemy, responsible for every Turkish calamity?

Does this kind of talk remind you of Goebbels and Rosenberg?

From Radikal today:

Republican People’s Party (CHP) Canan Arıtman was not satisfied with implying that President Abdullah Gül's mother might be of Armenian descent, but she also declared Armenians the element that should be sought after every catastrophe and be labeled our eternal enemy. Arıtman is proud.

She is not only unapologetic but also brags about how many supporters she has. Is there anyone left who still doubts that this is exactly the right time for the campaign [of apology to Armenians by intellectuals] that we have been debating for a long time at a time when Arıtman and those who like her proudly commit this crime in Parliament and declare a segment of the country's population the national enemy, creating threats against their lives? Arıtman and those like her are the strongest reason we have to apologize to the Armenian community. If these people can readily put into circulation statements that are racist, low and self-aggrandizing, the entire community is responsible for that. We all have a share in this crime. I have questions to ask people who approach this issue reluctantly and who think that it is unnecessary as an agenda item. Have you ever thought about this? Maybe we are all really Armenians. We may all have people in our lineage who were forced to act like Muslim Turks.

23 December 2008, Tuesday

Ergun, do you agree that Can and her party are Nazi racists?

From the Turkish press today:

Several Turkish intellectuals have started a signature campaign with regards to the Armenian massacre in 1915, apologizing to Armenians. There have been mixed reactions to the campaign. While some have said they also felt sorry for what happened but did not feel personally responsible for something they did not take part in and never supported and so on, some ultra-nationalists among us have fiercely opposed the campaign and tried to belittle, to say the least, the signatories. But, there was one reaction from Republican People's Party (CHP) Ýzmir deputy Canan Arýtman that deserves to be in the spotlight and given detailed treatment.
President Abdullah Gül was asked last week about the campaign, and he responded that there is freedom of speech in the country and everyone is entitled to their views. Ms. Arýtman took this statement as rubberstamping the campaign and said that Mr. Gül should advocate for the Turkish people, not the Armenian nation. She then said there should be a reason behind Mr. Gül's so-called pro-Armenian stance, and she advised the press to research Mr. Gül's mother's ancestors, implying that Mr. Gül has Armenian blood.

Ms. Arýtman is doing Turkish democracy a service by drawing attention to the racist and fascist inheritance of her party, the CHP, which is the ideological successor of the Ottoman period's Union and Progress (Ýttihad ve Terakki) Party. This party and its three leaders -- Enver Paþa, Cemal Pasha and Talat Pasha -- are being held responsible for the Armenian massacre, for they ruled the country between 1908 and 1918, and they ordered the forced emigration of the Armenians from eastern Turkey, which resulted in many thousands of these Armenians dying because of the harsh conditions of murderous attacks by Ergenekon-like gangs.

The Union and Progress Party was established as an underground organization in the Balkans by over-enthusiastic Young Turks who were mostly either medical or military schools students or graduates. Most of these Young Turks were Turkish nationalists in the multiethnic Ottoman state. Similar to today's radical Islamists, who are mostly graduates of technical subjects, these Young Turks hated the ulema (religious scholars) for their moderate stance and despised the Ottoman rulers. As they were also mostly positivists, they did not believe in any religion but were ready to use it for instrumental purposes to mobilize the masses against the rulers. The Young Turks believed that the country was in danger, and indeed it was. But they also believed that to save the country, anything else was only a mere detail. By looking at what they did in retrospect, one understands that democracy, human rights, legitimacy, the sanctity of innocent lives, etc., were all ignorable details in the eyes of these Young Turks. After constantly criticizing Sultan Abdülhamid II's rule as undemocratic and repressive, these Young Turks pressured the sultan to start the second constitutional period in 1908.

After the elections, the Young Turks' Union and Progress Party came to power. In a very short time, they staged a military coup against the establishment, toppled the sultan, closed down all opposition parties and established a dictatorship. They followed very radical nationalist policies and did not allow any non-Turks to infiltrate their inner circle. Under their rule, the Ottoman state was dismantled, and they took us to war in 1914 to support the Germans. Their nationalist rhetoric disillusioned many loyal Arabs and other ethnic groups. When some Armenians started a rebellion for independence in eastern Turkey, the Young Turks reacted harshly and forcibly removed all Armenians from the region. After the establishment of the republic, their ideology, albeit in a modified form, continued with the CHP. What Ms. Arýtman is doing today is simply revering her ideological and political Young Turk fathers and their "accomplishments."

For decades, people like Ms. Arýtman have tried to convince Westerners that they were the only full-humans in the country and that they were trying to modernize the ignorant and obscurantist masses. They still have friends in Western quarters who call the Justice and Development Party (AK Party) leaders Islamo-fascists. We should thank Ms. Arýtman for reminding us once again who the real fascists and racists were, obsessed with blood, in Turkey. When we know this history, we should not be surprised by the ultra-nationalist and racist rhetoric of Ergenekonians and their supporters among the elite circles.

Ergun,

I guess your ravings are not very influential in Turkey:

Armenian Apology Causes Brawl in Turkish Parliament
ISTANBUL (Marmara)--A Turkish parliament member's request Sunday that the legislature apologize to Armenians for the “events of 1915” has caused an uproar in parliament, with members hurling personal insults at one another.

Democratic Society Party (DTP) member Osman Euzcelik brought the matter up during parliament's discussion of the education ministry budget and went on to recall the Armenian massacres by using the Kurdish word that describes Genocide.

He also said that he had heard stories about the Armenian killings as child growing up in Turkey and added that the killings were planned by the sultan of the Ottoman Empire and were carried out by groups called Hamiddiye, which also had Kurdish members.

“These groups killed a large number of Armenians. A lot of times they would line up the Armenians and shoot them in the chest. All Armenians of Martin were killed and some fled to Syria,” said Euzcelik, who added that his grandfather's family provided refuge for Genocide survivors.

Nevzad Pakdil, who was presiding over the parliament session, interrupted Euzcelik, blasting him for “insulting the society in which you live.”

Euzcelik said that he was apologizing to Armenians on his own behalf.

Pakdil intervened again attempting to stifle the parliament member. Members of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) applauded the Pakdil while another DTP member, Surru Saken directed his anger to Paktdil by saying, “Mr. Chairman, you represent the Marash district and you know full well the extent of the tragedy that unfolded there.”

This comment prompted a member of the AKP to walk toward DTP members and begin screaming at his fellow parliamentarians. Another parliament member intervened to stop what could have become a physical altercation.

“Should we not talk about the facts? There is not one Assyrian left,” screamed another DTP member during the commotion, which was followed by several DTP members leaving the parliament.

Earlier in October, DTP leader, Ahmet Turk, denounced the government's policy regarding the Kurdish issue, describing it as “cultural and societal genocide."

"The policy of denial, assimilation and eradication has affected people. Only the Kurds resisted. They still resist," Turk told demonstrators in the south-eastern city of Diyarbakir on October 22.

DTP, the country's main Kurdish party, has been under siege by the Turkish government, facing a possible ban by the constitutional court in what is widely recognized as being a politically charged case aimed at decapitating the party.

so Korkak-1,

gadou got your tongue?

It sbeen minutes since you posted something important by Ara Baliozian.

do his statements justify killing women and babies/

pls explain.

eRGUN,

Here's something that ought to tie you and the Turko-Nazis up in a knot.

This is a book review published in 1959 by Lemkin himself concerning the memoirs of a Roman Catholic Monsignor who witnessed the Genocide.

Enjoy!

These are Lemkin's words:

A WEEKLY EXCLUSIVE:

Dr. Lemkin, Father of genocide Convention, Reviews Work Relating to Turkish Massacres

We are honored herewith to present an evaluatory commentary on the recently published ?Les Memoires of Mgr. Jean Nashlian? sent to the Weekly by Dr. Raphael Lemkin, the world famous crusader for the United Nations Convention Against Genocide, an extraordinary international document now ratified by fifty-eight nations.

The history of the atrocious crime perpetrated by the Turks in 1915 which claimed the lives of more than one million Armenians has been substantially enriched by the recent publication in Vienna (Imprimerie Mechithariste, Les Memoires de Mgr. Jean Naslian, 2 vols., 1639 pages, in French) of the memories of a remarkable catholic spiritual leader Monsignor Jean Naslian, the late Bishop of Trebizonde. The Armenians as a community are known to be very religious, and in the supreme test of their lives they clung closely to their spiritual leaders, whether of the Armenian Apostolic Church, Roman Catholic or Protestant faiths.

These leaders did not fail their flocks. Monsignor Naslian describes the plight of his people in great detail. He places responsibility for the origin of the plan to destroy the Armenian people on the young Turkish committee called Ittihad, a political party which became prominent in Turkey in 1912. It was a very nationalistic movement which wanted to effect the fusion of all races and religions into one homogeneous entity, the Turkish nation which would reign supreme. There was no room in it’s new creation for the ancient Armenian people whose first trace of historical existence goes back to the 15th century BC. The Armenians in Turkey had grown into a highly cultured, cohesive, industrious and prosperous community which could not easily be integrated.

The first ominous sign came into deportations from Constantinople of 270 Armenians-intellectuals, writers, artists, editors, teachers- into the interior of Turkey, where most of them were immediately massacred. In order to deprive the Armenians in other parts of Turkey of their leadership as well, the Armenians intellectuals elsewhere were arrested at the same time. With one blow the brain of a people was damaged. From this deported group, Aram Andonian survived to publish after the first World War a book with authenticated documents revealing the governmental orders for these massacres. In the course of the war he managed to send information to America (this reviewer had the privilege of meeting Andonian and obtaining from him a rare publication on the Armenian case).

The second phase of destruction came soon when the Armenian population was rounded up in all cities of interior Turkey and marched into the Syrian desert. During this march most of them were mowed down by the guns of the escorting police. Pope Benedict XV intervened on behalf of the Armenians but succeeded only in preventing the mass destruction of the Armenians in the capital city of Constantinople.

The US ambassador in Turkey, Henry Morgenthau did a yeoman’s job in attempting to save the Armenians. He got nowhere, however, with the Minister of Interior, Taalat Pasha. In his own memoirs the former American ambassador relates that Taalat Pasha told him that insurance policies were found on some Armenian corpses which were taken out on some insurance companies in Hartford, Connecticut. Since these were the insurance policies belonging to Turkish citizens, Taalat Pasha reasoned, the American Ambassador should help to get the money from the insurance companies for the Turkish government. The ambassador was incensed at this request and of course refused.

Those further interested in the Armenian tragedy should read the collection of documents by Johannes Lepsius of Berlin, called Deutschland und Armenian. Lepsius was the man who stormed the foreign offices of Turkey and Germany (both allies in World War I) to save the Armenians.

The Turks tried to drown their guilt in rumors about Armenian rebellions. Both Naslian and Lepsius refute this charge with the Turkish government’s own documents. Certainly women, children, and the aged could not all have been involved in rebellion. No charges were levelled against these innocent people except that they were Armenians.

Monsignor Naslian ascribes a great part of the motivation of the crime to economic reasons. All the long-coveted property of the victims was taken over by the Turks they enriched themselves through the murder of a people.

In terms of the larger issues involved, the losses in culture through the genocide of the Armenian people in Turkey were staggering. The

Armenians, as the intellectual core of Turkey, were in possession of valuable personal libraries, archives, and historical manuscripts, which were dispersed and lost. Churches, convents, and monuments of artistic and historical value were destroyed.

Monsignor Naslian did not simply suffer in silence during these agonizing times. He was informing the outside world as best he could through church connections. After World War I he joined the national delegation of Armenians in Paris and tried to arouse the conscience of the western world for the Armenian cause. Like most of the men who get for their own lives a high goal, he died a disappointed man. He felt that the European powers tried to use the Armenians for their own ends, letting them die when help might have been possible, and then forgetting the whole tragedy in order to escape their own conscience.

Although he does not show hatred, maintaining throughout a judicious objectivity and a trust in God’s judgment, Monsignor Naslian expresses one feeling which is especially close to the heart of the reviewer. This is that the victims of the genocide throughout the ages have filled history with their sufferings to such an extent that mankind can no longer escape the recognition of either the consequence or the moral responsibility. In this sense every community which has fallen victim of genocide acts as Christ carrying the cross to Golgotha. The result has been an ever stronger articulation of human conscience culminating finally in the enactment of an international law against this foul crime-the United Nations Convention Against Genocide, now ratified by 58 nations. The sufferings of the Armenian men, women, and children thrown into the Euphrates River or massacred on the way to Der-el-Zor have prepared the way for the adoption for the Genocide Convention by the United Nations and have morally compelled Turkey to ratify it.

This is the reason why the Armenians of the entire world were specifically interested in the Genocide Convention. They filled the galleries of the drafting committee at the third General Assembly of the United Nations in Paris when the Genocide Convention was discussed. An Armenian, Levon Keshishian, the well-known U.N. correspondent for Arab newspapers, helped considerably through his writings in obtaining the ratifications of many Near Eastern and North African countries.

One million Armenians died, but a law against the murder of peoples was written with the ink of their blood and the spirit of their sufferings.

To this the two well-documented volumes of Monsignor Naslian bear powerful witness for history.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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COMEDY THAT'S NOT SO FUNNY

TURKEY; THE GOLDEN ERA OF RACISM AND NAZI POLITICS

RESERVATIONS NOW BEING ACCEPTED FOR WAFFEN SS RETIREES:

Ergun, did you also matriculate in the Turkish school system?

The fascist and racist legislator Canan Aritman, MD, thinks that Armenian DNA can be determined:

CHP deputy insists on DNA tests for president

ANKARA - The dispute between a main opposition deputy and President Abdullah Gül over the latter’s ethnic origin took on another dimension with the request of a DNA test from Gül to prove his ethnic background.

Canan Arıtman, the İzmir deputy of the Republican People’s Party, or CHP, said Gül had Armenian roots, which is why he has not openly rejected the apology campaign carried out by a group of intellectuals. In a counter-statement Gül said his family was 100 percent Muslim and Turk and filed a lawsuit against Arıtman.

"Today, ethnic origin does not gain legal and scientific validity through family trees, but through DNA tests," Arıtman said in her written statement late Monday. "Birth records during the Ottomans were based on declarations and while recording non-Muslims, the state used to write a Muslim name as the father’s name. Thus, nobody can prove their ethic identity through a family tree."

Arıtman said it was Gül’s prerogative to file a suit against her and that she was not after anyone’s DNA results, but in the event of a judicial process, she would have to produce documents and witnesses. She also said she expected the president to say the Turkish nation had not committed any crime of genocide. Many nations owe an apology to our nation, but we do not owe an apology to anybody.

Constitutional duty
"I do not think I have requested a difficult thing. This is the president’s constitutional duty. If he does not perform this task, he commits a crime against the Constitution and he should resign," she said. In protest over Gül’s approach to an apology campaign concerning World War I-era killings of Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Empire, Arıtman said Gül was a secret Armenian. Thus, Gül filed a suit against Arıtman on the grounds her statements harm the notion that the president stands an equal distance from his or her citizens.

Arıtman has been harshly criticized by many, even members of her own party, for attacking the president with a racist motive. The CHP has warned Arıtman, but has not yet taken disciplinary action.

Ergun,

Do you denounce Aritman?

Every day you are silent is a tacit approval.

Where do you stand on Nazi and Fascist tactics?

Speak up,

Don't be a bootlicking korkak.

Maybe you think Aritman is an Armenian.

Korkak,

You seem to think Topalian's 1999 conviction disproves a 1915 Genocide. Well, then I guess Serdar Tatar's terrorism conviction yesterday proves it, by parity of reasoning:

ISTANBUL - Five Muslim immigrants, including Turkish-born convenience store clerk Serdar Tatar, were convicted of plotting to massacre U.S. soldiers at a New Jersey military installation that prosecutors described as a bid to wage Islamist holy war against America. The men could get life in prison when they are sentenced in April.

The five, who lived in and around Philadelphia for years, were found guilty of conspiring to kill U.S. military personnel. But they were acquitted of attempted murder, after prosecutors acknowledged the men were probably months away from an attack on Fort Dix and did not necessarily have a specific plan. Four defendants were also convicted of weapons charges, according to The Associated Press. The federal jury deliberated for 38 hours over six days.

Serpil Tatar, sister of defendant Serdar Tatar, called the conviction "a big lie" that had undermined her faith in the United States, reported Reuters. She denied her brother was a terrorist, saying: "My brother was crying for the people who died on Sept. 11."

Convicted were: Tatar, Turkish-born convenience store clerk; Mohamad Shnewer, a Jordanian-born cab driver and brothers Dritan, Eljvir and Shain Duka, ethnic Albanians from the former Yugoslavia, who had a roofing business. A sixth man arrested and charged only with firearms offenses pleaded guilty earlier.

The government said after the arrests in 2007 that case underscored the dangers of terrorist plots hatched on U.S. soil. Although investigators said the conspirators were inspired by Osama bin Laden, they were not accused of any ties to foreign terror groups. Lawyers argued that the alleged plot was all talk - that the men weren't seriously planning anything and that they were manipulated and goaded by two paid FBI informants.

"These criminals had the capacity and had done preparations to do serious and grievous harm to members of our military," Ralph Marra, the acting U.S. attorney for New Jersey, said after the verdict.

’Acting stupid’
But some Muslim leaders in New Jersey disputed that.

"I don't think they actually mean to do anything," said Mohamed Younes, president of the American Muslim Union. "I think they were acting stupid, like they thought the whole thing was a joke."

Jim Sues, executive director of the New Jersey chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said: "Many people in the Muslim community will see this as a case of entrapment. From what I saw, there was a significant role played by the government informant."

According to prosecutors, the group chose the Army post at Fort Dix because Turkish-born Tatar was familiar with it. His father's pizza shop delivered to the New Jersey base, which is 25 miles (40 kilometers) from Philadelphia and used primarily to train reservists for duty in Iraq.

It was really stupid for them to buy machine guns if it was just talk, donchyathink?

Turks can go to hell--cowards!

Let us not forget the valiant Armenians who side by side with the Nazi's exterminated the Jews between 1935 and 1945. Armenians boast of there being 150,000 Armenians members of the Nazi army. The Armenian Nazi General Dro proudly commanded the 20,000 Armenian-Nazi 812th Battalion during World War II. From 1922 up until 1991 Russia kept Armenia under a it's control and under a watchful eye of distrust for it's siding with the Nazi's against her.

Steve

Halloween was the time for fantasy, not Xmas.

20,000 Armenian POWs were recruited from the Soviet prisoners, as were larger numbers of Georgians, Azeris and Virtually every western European nationalities. The Albanians and Kosovars actually provided more volunteers than the Germans could process.

The Armenians, along with Georgians were never involved in killing Jews or manning camps, as were Ukrainians

25000 Armenian Americans served in the US Military; over 200,000 soviet Armenians died in the Soviet Army in WWII

Not that the proclivitires of any nation to go Nazi has much to say about whether the 1915 Genocide occurred, but you may wish to google or actually research the name Alparslan Turkes, who was a major figure in Turkish racism and Nazism. Unlike Soviet Armenia, Turkey had and still has a Nazi-like movement centered around the racial concept of Turkishness, and the inferiority of those not Turks. The ultra violent Grey Wolves should be researched on this issue, if you want to see racial nonsense and violence. Remember theman who shot the Pope? Mehmet Ali Agca? He was a member in good standing.

1. For a laugh, read about the recent ravings of Izmir parliamentarian Canan Aritman, who announced that Abdullah Gul must have an Armenian mother because he did not condemn the ap0ology petition. Aritman is a member of the CHP party, which traces its history to Turkes.

Instead of defending Armenians, Gul sued her for defamation.

2. In Turkey, today and 100 years ago, calling someone an Armenian was considered to be an insult, just as the phrase "yehudi korkak" (cowardly jew) is in common usage.

3. Turkey signed a non aggression pact with Hitler five days before Hitler invaded Poland, and did not come over to the allied
side until it was clear Germany would lose the war.

4. Turkey deserved praise for allowing persecuted Jews to immigrate, albeit for heavy bribes. What is less well known is that Turkey denaturalized hundreds of Jews with Turkish passports inthe early years of the war, because the early 1940s Turkish government followed the non Ottoman racist "Turkey forthe Turks" movement.

5. Armenians who were recruited from Soviet prisoners to join the Ostlegions were not Nazis. They, like virtually every Soviet nationality other than Russuans, merely served in the Army. By the way, Jews were not killed by the Nazis on any large scale until 1942.

korkak is spreading his Christmas cheer on the site run by Forbes magazine. Same old crap with some new racist angles.
And his arguments are being turned into
Chee koofta ( rawvground steak tartar).

Armenians need to understand: their paranoia about Turks and other nations are based on their hatered. Their breakfast, lunch, dinner are being Aryans and first nation accepted Christianity. The alpha story of all times for Armenians is their paranoia. They are not approaching to integrate to their current countries. They are crippled with their own paranoia. In the last 1000 years, there was no country with the name of Armenia. The historical books written by Europeans are all fabricated because of Armenioans' roles for helping Christianity against Saljuk Turks who won the war in 1071 againt the East Roman's Empire. Armenians have no independent history ; they were part of a Turkish Safavid in a country of Safavids.
Also Persia never existed in history. All governments were Turkish governments such as Saljuk, Gaznavids, Safavids, Afshar, Qajar in a country, which mistakenly named Iran. Persia and Armenia are the artificial names faked by Europeans against Turks.
Conclusion: Armenia exist as a state within Turkish Safavids (wrongly called Persia!)
And also Armenians were part of the Ottoman empires . Armenians helped to Russians in 1813 and 1828 to occupy Yerevan which was Turkish city. General Paskevich, in 1828 brought many Armenians from other countries in the occupied Yerevan.
Armenians are fabricating a history which is helped by Russians and Western countries.

I agree with Michael. Enough is enough. Armenians have a paranoia. Charles Darwin and others shed light on our ignorance and stupidity which are related to religions. But Armenians, no matter what are their education, days and nights dreaming dreams for being Aryans of Hitler and the first Christianity. Enough is enough! We had Adolf Hitler who talked about Aryans and massacred people. What is Pan Armenians as Aryans? Shame on you! You are living in the USA and propagate Aryans and hatedred against Turks? The terrorist State of Armenian has occupied the historical Azerbaijani Karabakh and seven regions by billions of Russian's weapons. Armenians massacred kids and pregnant Azerbaijanis in the city of Khojali between 25-26 Feb. 1992.
Armeniana are governed bt a terrorist organization like Dashankists! Under the revolutioary Armenian Federation! Armenians must give up their studpidity and must pull out their terrorists soldiers from the occupied Azerbaijani Karabakh.
Stop your paranoia and Aryans propaganda.
You need to learn about humanity.
Your paranoia is extreme and chronic!

Short of the evidence, it's a certainty that "Steve Nobleoski," "Michael McMurphy," and "Igor" are far from a "Steve," a "Nobleoski," a "Michael," a "McMurphy," and an "Igor." In that sense, based on their writing "style" and perposterous claims, they are Turkish.

As do other human beings, Armenians suffer from one form of malaise or another; but "paranoia" isn't one of them. The paranoid personality disorder is best symbolized by the state of Turkey. Take, for instance, the reaction by its parliament to the "apology campaign"; or you may want to take a look at Turkish history.

From SPIEGEL, an interesting article about the apology campaign:

APOLOGIZING TO THE ARMENIANS

'Eroding One of Turkey's Biggest Taboos'

More than 25,000 Turks have added their names to an online statement apologizing for Ottoman war crimes committed during World War I. SPIEGEL spoke with campaign initiator Baskin Oran.

SPIEGEL: Since the beginning of your online campaign, more than 25,000 Turks have signed a statement apologizing for war crimes committed by the Ottoman Empire during World War I. More than a million Armenians lost their lives in the catastrophic events, which began in 1915. Is this the beginning of a critical examination of the past?

Baskin Oran: The Turks who are now apologizing are not responsible for the sins of 1915. There is no collective crime, but there is a collective conscience. With our campaign, we are eroding one of Turkey's biggest taboos. But still, the campaign is coming decades late.

SPIEGEL: Turkish nationalists say that you are damaging the country's image. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan agrees.

Oran: I disagree. I think that our image abroad will actually improve. Beyond that, though, it is the grandchildren of the Armenians who should finally hear an apology -- in a country like Turkey, where there is no "culture of apology."

SPIEGEL: What effect will the campaign have on Turkish-Armenian relations?

Oran: The majority of Armenians welcome our initiative. But there are hardliners who criticize our petition for not specifically using the word "genocide." They are afraid that our apology could foil Armenian demands for reparations. Such people merely see us as lackeys of the Turkish state.

SPIEGEL: What kind of reactions have you received from Turkish citizens.

Oran: Unfortunately, they have mostly been negative. Every day, I personally receive around 200 pieces of hate mail. Many accuse me of having insulted the Turkish people. But one has to bear in mind that every child here learns that Armenians killed Muslims. Our education is to blame for the country's collective amnesia. In eastern Turkey, though, it is true that, in the past, many people did suffer from Armenian revenge attacks.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,598746,00.html

NOTE THE FOLLOWING: "But one has to bear in mind that every child here learns that Armenians killed Muslims. Our education is to blame for the country's collective amnesia."

1915AGHistory: I'm not sure if Michael McMurphy and Igor are Turks, but they're writing from the same ISP. Either they're buddies, or the same person. At the very least, the people behind the comments are morons.

All Persians
City Hall,
Teheran,
so-called Iran,

Dear Sirs,

We have demonstrated beyond cavil that you do not exist. You never have. You are therefore evicted from occupying the so-called Iranian real estate..

You are a figment of some Armenian Nazi European conspiracy. No, really, you are.

Everything about you and your supposed land is actually Turkish.

Please vacate the premises. If you don't, we will start having screaming fits.

This is a masterstroke in our worlwide fight against Armenian oppression puppetmasters, don't you agree?

Your friends in Baku,

Igor and Michael McMurphy ( I put the Mc in the name Murphy so that nobody could claim I was Turkish)

p.s. our lawyers say we can send this letter to the Chinese and the Native Americans, who are wrongly holding on to our Casinos.

Thank you, Mr. Arellano. I agree.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

Igor McMurphy,

Seriously, are you guys on crack?

Maybe ESL fails you. In which case ask a nice growwn up who speaks English for help.

400,000 Armenians fought in the Soviet Army against Hitler, and you can add another 25,000 from the good old US of A. And that's not counting the British Army, or the French Army and its resistance hero of Lyon, Manucharian, and lots more.

Yes, about 20,000 Armos were recruited from German stalags to join the Ostlegions, but that was to get three hots and a cot, not because they were Nazis. They had lots of company, including plenty of Moslems.

I assure you Armenians do not idolize Nazis.
They don't have outmoded racial superiority ideas along those lines. If you want to read a madman, read the recent father of Turkish racism, Alparslan Turkes, or his modern day progeny Canan Aritman. And just how "Aryan" do Armenians look to you? For every petite blonde blue eyed Armenian gal, there's 20 who look Persian or middle-eastern.

And we hate German food.

Or you can take a stroll down Genocide lane and read what the CUP leaders said about Turkish blood and superiority, and all that nonsense. Since most Turks and Armenians are indistinguishable physicallly, this is truly crazy crap, right Igor?

I have travelled in Central Asia, among the Turkic and Persian-speakers and guess what? They think you're middle eastern whites who speak Turkish poorly. They don't consider you real Turks (no horses) , even as some Turks fantasize about a pan-Turanic world led, of course, from Istanbul, not Almaty or even Baku.

Get with it lads: Tuirks are the descendents of Anatolians who were conquered over the past 1,000 years by Turkish-speakers. A lot - maybe a majority of Turks today - have Armenain, Assyrian and Greek ancestors.
Turkish is a language/cultural group, not a distinct genetic group.

Are there 12 or so crazed Armenians who claim to be Nazis? Sure, but they live over their parents' garages in Glendale, next door to the Korean Nazi kids. Even ISRAEL has Nazis. Look it up.

Can you find some nut claiming to be an Armenian Nazi on the web?Sure. If you look hard enough you'll find Fijian and Eskimo Nazis too.

Armenians are a small and dispersed people. Can't you find someone or some country more the size of Turkey to hate?

Igor McMurphy is...how do you say "crazy" in Armenian? So Persian never existed? Why are their emperors mentioned so many damn times in the Bible, then?

crazy=khent
Craziness=khentatyoun
It's crazy=khent eh
You're crazy=khent ess
Now you know enough to understand 20 percent of what is said at
Armo parties.

Notes from the Nut Job:

Mr. Kirlikovali does not like the apology petition. I missed this nugget from an article he wrote about it: that the petition is racist and controlled by...you guessed it, Armenians.

This will come as a shock to Baskin Oran and the other Turkish people who originated and signed it.

Ergun thinks Armenians are to blame for all his ills. I wish.

Kirlikovali, your favorite Professor, Guenter Lewy, says this on page 122 of his book, which you praised unconditionally in the Middle East Quarterly:

"But many others [Armenians]lost their lives as a result of the deportations and the massacres...[.] The Turkish argument that the losses of both sides should be subsumed under the label 'civil war' undoubtedly has the purpose of deflecting attention from this basic fact. The large number of Armenian atrocities is irrelevant in this connection and does not make the 'civil war' argument any more convincing. Dissenting from the prevailing national consensus, Turkish historian Selim Derengel has insisted that "colossal crimes were committed against the Armenian people in Anatolia and elsewhere" and that "no historian with a conscience can possibly accept the 'civil war' line, which is a travesty of history.I agree withthis view."

You've known that your entire civil war theory is nonsense in the eyes of a Professor you praise (and whose work can be faulted on other grounds).
So, dredge up all the atrocity stories you like, Guenter is telling you its nonsense. Sure, Priests with flamethrowers, babies with daggers, old ladies with crochet needles, none of it matters.
And almost all of it is untrue.

JUST HOW STUPID IS ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI?

A: PRETTY STUPID

PROOF:

I hypothesized that there is no anti-Armenian statement Ergun will not applaud lustily. Last week, this incomprehensible shaggy dog story was posted by a supposed Walter Murphy about his father meeting two dishonest Armenians while mountain climbing on the Pasadena Star website:

Walter Murphy
|Report Abuse |Judge it! |#449 Saturday Dec 27
I would like to add my humble support to Professor Ergun, [I baited the hook with the "Professor" honorarium] because his many quotations are similar to those collected by my father, Raleigh K.
Murphy, who climbed many Caucasian mountains in the years just after WWI.

In one memorable meeting he had at a caravanserai near Mt Elbrus, Two Armenian traders from Tisneyastan in what is now Gyumri, admitted that
Armenians never made rugs, but stole the idea of rugs from the Mohammedans.
These traders were named
Migee Moogian and Tonal Patian. They admitted bad crimes against the Mohammetans.

These recollections are in
My father's memoirs
"In tisneystan" and you may quote them. "

On its own, the quote simply displays some vague anti-Armenian bias, this time about rugs. But Ergun should have recognized that "Migee Moogian" is Mickey Mouse [Armo for Mouse is Moog], Tonal Patian is Donald Duck [pat=duck] and Tisneyastan is Disneyland.

Ol'Ergun acted as if the keys tot he magic kingdom had been given to him by Valter Tisney himself. His response:

Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA
Reply »
|Report Abuse |Judge it! |#450 Sunday Dec 28
ONE MORE LIGHT

My deepest gratitude and thanks go to Mr. Walter Murphy who shone another light on the Armenian deception; a light, perhaps heretofore unknown, but nevertheless, significant and much appreciated.

If I had done nothing in this column in the two months since I have been exposing the Armenian falsifications, at least I have facilitated the shining of ONE MORE LIGHT on the Armenian fraud.

I have never said the Armenians did not suffer; I said Turks and other suffered, too. Exposing the Armenian war crimes coupled with ARmenian hate crimes, I have always tried to point to the Armenian complicity in the human tragedy that is the civil war, not genocide.

Thank you Mr. Murphy!

Ergun Kirlikovali

Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides

www.turkla.com
My dead cannot rise from their graves and write here to defend themsleves; i must be their voice.

I feel, with Walter Murphy's kind and gentle contribution, my silent dead have found another voice.

I particularly like how the silent dead find voice, now that Mickey and Donald have spilled the beans on bad Armenian rug traders in Georgia 100 years ago.

LOL. I'm not surprised.

Here is an excerpt from a recent story that, without a doubt, will put a smile on Ergun's face:

In Istanbul, a shop owned by a local Jewish family was targeted, as well. A huge poster saying, "Do not buy from here, since this shop is owned by a Jew," was plastered on the shop and other posters on the wall said, "Jews and Armenians are not allowed, but dogs are."

Article: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129403

Here is a story about an investigation into the recent apology campaign: http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Gulf%2C+Middle+East+%26+Africa&month=January2009&file=World_News2009011012443.xml

Yes, a probable legal action against a damn apology campaign!

BTW, the Talat Pasha Committee (The namesake of one of the most evil beings that the world has ever known. Yes, beasts worship their kind.) had an opinion on the apology campaign: http://en.apa.az/news.php?id=95089

I'm wondering if Ergun is a member....

Oh! And there is this story: Patriarch Mutafyan Assassination Plot Revealed

http://www.asbarez.com/#AMC=Open&ASBSC=Closed

It's a wonderful time to be a Turk, I'm sure.

I think Hitler returned Ol Pasha Talat's remains toTurkey where they stand in a large, ugly mauseleum pretty much visited by
nobody except Young Grey Wolf couples on their first date. Its a crime - no kidding- just to chew gum there. Insult to Turkishness, I guess.

I bet 10-1 Ergun went there and solemnly bowed his head, to prove that this OC pseudoTurk is a true son of something.

I still think lots - not a majority, but lots - of Turks want to know what happened, and why Granny crossed herself on Easter. I think it really is a tough time all the time to live in a country that seems western and liberal in a few ways on the surface [you can definitely buy Starbucks and go on Church tours with only a small chance of being blown up by somebody the government will say was a Kurd], but in which fascist generals can have you killed or coup the government any time they choose.

in other words, its not a free country, or anything close. I'd love to see a mock Tourist ad: Turkey: land of prisons and fear, with the usual pictures of Hagia Sophia (Greek Church), Cappodocian caves (Greek built), Topkapi palace (Armenian built) and Akhtamar (Armenain).

Just how many Turks are, in actuality, of Armenian origin? Could it be that Ergun Kirlikovali, himself, is of Armenian origin? There isn't any question that there are many, many Turks (far more than we can imagine) that are rooted in other cultures and that, through Turkification (the forced Islamization and adherence to Turkish culture), have come to abhor (if not commit acts of violence against) those of their ethnic roots (technically, their ancestors and the descendants of their ancestors; their kinspeople).

Well, for now, here is an interesting article about the one "Dogu Perincek," an ardent denier of the Armenian Genocide, and the near certainty that he has Armenian roots:

ON MANIFESTAIONS OF IDENTITY IN TURKEY
Ruben Melkonyan

"Noravank" Foundation
22 January 2009

In Turkish reality the issue of ethnic origin is rather delicate and it
often finds reflection in politics, directly touches on state officials
and politicians, causing different speculations. In Turkish "national"
state belonging to other ethnos is regarded as an insult, something
equal to "alien". It is also a widespread method of "accusations"
perceptible by vast masses.

Very often state officials of high rank and politicians have to go
into the problem of ethnic identity and relating "accusations". You
can notice some blur and contradictions in their statements and
comments. Among high-ranking Turkish officials the name of Turkish
prime-minister Recep Erdogan is often mentioned in the context of
ethnic identity and it is pointed out that he is not "pure-blooded"
Turk. In the course of the discussion on his name on 6th December,
1997 in Sghert Erdogan tried to answer these accusations with his
inherent ingenuousness: "They say I'm rizian or laz. I say that I am
not laz. I asked about it my father, and he asked his grandfather who
was mullah and he answered this way: "Tomorrow we'll die. God will
ask: "Who's your god, who's your prophet, what's your religion? He
will not ask about your nationality or kin. And then you answer:
"Thank God I'm Muslim" and pass by.

But if we follow the ideas he expressed later, we'll see that he
contradicts to himself. Thus on 21st May, 2004 in Romania he declared
that: "There are no more ideologies in the world. Both ethnic and
religious ideologies are perishable". This was followed by another
statement which contradicted to the foregoing and which was made
on 11th August, 2004 in Georgia: "I am also Georgian; our family is
Georgian family which moved from Batum to Rize". And on 12th April,
2005 in Norway Erdogan said: "I'm Rizian, my wife is from Aghert,
she is Arab and not Turk".

Such a mess in his thoughts let Turkish media suppose that Erdogan
is in the identity crisis now.

Different observations and facts let us attend, that among Turkish
Armenians who had adopted Islam and their successors there is a strata
of those who, having Armenian origin not only reject it, but also
try to prove to their milieu their "pure-blooded Turkish" or Muslim
descend and become convinced anti-Armenian. There is definitely some
psychological point too.

They psychologically regard the part of Armenians who could abide
to their roots as their main enemies. The hostile attitude towards
Armenians in Turkish society is also an important condition
of anti-Armenian manifestations among those who had Armenian
origins. They psychological ly don't want to belong to the hostile
nation, that's why they choose the road of assimilation with the
dominant nation. Turning to this matter, the ethnographer Harutyun
Marutyan expresses the following idea: "Publications, direct and
indirect pressure of political and economic character may cause
people to try to get rid of pinned labels, change their milieu,
break off with their relatives and people of the same nation and in
fact choose the road of assimilation and estrangement".

Different sources impute Armenian or at least "non-pure Turkish"
origin to many famous Turkish nationalists, and this, as it was
mentioned above, can be used in political speculations. Among such
examples we would like to mention the statement which was put into
circulation recently saying that one of the most ardent anti-Armenians,
the chairman of Workers party Dogu Perinchek has Armenian roots. We
should remind you, that he is one of the most active extirpators
of international recognition of the Armenian Genocide and he was
condemned for the denial of the Genocide in Switzerland.

Some Turkish circles made a big stink, and Perinchek was nicknamed
as "the conqueror of Lozano". The radical-chairman of Workers party
evaluates the Armenian Genocide as "imperialistic lie".

Perinchek's son is in the track of his father and he also joined the
struggle against the recognition of the Genocide. It is worth noting
that at present Dogu Perinchek is detained on "Ergenekon" terrorist
organization case which caused a sensation in Turkey.

The scandalous disclosure of his routs drew a wide response in Turkish
media. Thus, it was mentioned that Dogu is a native of Apchagha village
in province of Eghin (Akn, Erznka). It is worth noting that province
of Akn is well known for the great number of apostate Armenians and
historical sources confirm that up to 1915 this province was inhabited
mainly by Christians, generally Armenians and Georgians.

But Turkish magazine "Chronicle" came out with more serious facts of
Perinchek's origin. There are quotations from archival documents of the
Ottoman court in the article which give information on demographic,
social, economic, religious, ethnic situation in the region. In
accordance with them there were many Armenians in the region at the
close of 19th and the beginning of 20th century. Most of them were
craftsmen, and they mainly lived in village of Akn. There were also
many Armenians in the villages of Kemer-gab, Apchagha, Ilich and
e.t.c. The village of Apchagha, the native village of Perinchek's
ancestors, was mainly inhabited by Armenians. The village headman,
the members of the council of elders were Armenians. Some of their
names have even remained in the court records: the son of Hakob
Krikor, the son of Artin Kirkor and e.t.c. As it was20mentioned in
the foregoing article there was wide spread and at the same time
interesting regularity among Armenians of Akn. They all had generic
names (it should be mentioned for comparison that the surname law was
put into circulation only in 1934, and only after that Turks began to
use surnames), but it is interesting that most of them were made up of
Turkish names: Mouratoglu, Degirmendjioglu, Chilingirolu, Ayvazoglu,
Perinchegoglu and e.t.c. But there was one more interesting detail
in the records of the court. In spite of the fact that most of them
had Turkish generic names, their surnames were Armenian. Turkish and
other surnames were exclusions. In that very court documents there
are records saying that the Perinchoglus were Armenians, and there are
even court cases where they were involved and there was mentioned that;
"Perinchoglu Stepan and Khachatur of Armenian "millet" (nation)". The
father of Dogu Perinchek's grandfather Mehmet Sadik was born in 1850
in Apchagha. His son Mehmet Djemal Perinchek also was born in the same
village (1887). But as you can see, their surnames are not Armenian
and, in fact, the above mentioned peculiarity is infringed. This
may be regarded as exclusion but the facts from the court documents
throw light on this and many other questions. Thus in the records of
Ottoman court it was written clearly that Mehmet Sadik Perinchoglu was
"muhetdi", and

muhetdi means a person who has converted the faith, it means that
he had adopted Islam in the second half of 19th century, but there
was nothing said about the reasons of the conversion of faith. This
also means that Islam conversion policy with its ascents and declines
continued during the whole history of Ottoman state. Dogu Perinchek
is the offspring of Islamized Armenian. His Armenian descend made
him take the road of self-denial and Turkish chauvinism.

However even this circumstance does not save the likes of Perinchek
from the danger of accusation of being non-Turkish by Turkish
society. This is what Bagrat Esdukyan, the journalist of "Akos"
daily, writes about in his article "Who is Armenian?": "What can we
say to those who have disavowed their nation? Those who have not only
disavowed but even hate their nation. But it occurs that collective
memory doesn't let you disavow your nation. It will reveal the true
face of the adjurers and show what they have been trying to escape
from for their whole life".

Ergu,

Did Ataturk admit repeatedly that the Young Turk government massacred Christian subjects?

a) Yes, you got me copper
b) no
c) you are insulting Turkishness, Turks, Turkish empire, Turkish taffy, Turkish towels,Turkish baths, she-wolves, Turkish victims of bad Swedish cooking, Ergenekon, [pause for reverent bow to Empire founded by two really smart dogs], Turkish coffee, Turkeys, Tom Turkeys, Tom-Toms, Native "New World Turks" Americans, Turkish Rugs [anything I left out?]
d) now what do I do?

Dear Spirit of Ataurk,

The enemies surround me, just as the Greeks, French and British surrounded you. I hold aloft the sacred Goat-head, emblem of our sacred Ergenekon racial beginnings, and implore you for help. And could you send it overnnight/urgent on fedex before the 5;30 pm drop-off, please?

The Armenians just won't go away, they must have secret Turkish endurance genes. The Greeks, Kurds, Israelis, Hzbullah, Lebanese, and Assyrians are pissed at us. And now the Alewis and left-wingers and Professors are acting up. Don't get me started on the AK party, I'll be damned if Ms. Turkey wears a headscarf.

Yesterday some friggin' Turkish actor admitted killing 10 Greeks on Cyprus while he served in the glorious Army. The week before some dingbat in Anatolia gave his farm to the Assyrian Church, saying he realized it had been stolen during the Assyrian Genocide,

Christ, everybody has a Genocide they say was our fault. Who's next? Navajos? I forgot, they are Turks, we're safe there. And I don't have to tell you about the apology petition, plus its two years since Dink got it. Oof, we said we condemned it, why are they saying its our fault?

Send us a new PR firm, oh great one. Maybe Oprah is available.

Soon, the US congress which the Glendale Tashnags control will defame our ancestors, by saying bad things about our Glorious CUP leaders. By the way, after you kicked the bucket, Hitler was nice enough to send Talat's remains, but we've got them in what looks like the world's biggest marble wind tunnel. I understand you and he were not the best of friends. Still, can I get some love on this, maybe turn Talat's final resting place into an upscale downtown destination?

I pray, oh glorious leader, that I may have the strength to keep copying and pasting in our heroic struggle to confuse and obfuscate. In the meantime, I'm hoping for April 25 to roll around, think I'll be in Cabo the week before. Any Armo's in Mexico?

Your faithful stooge,

Goon

Prayer number 2

And, oh great one, disasterous news on the genetics front...

You'll remember how Ergenekon story says that a band of 600 suspiciously Nordic looking ur-Turk dudes headed off from some Central Asian shangri-la, to colonize Armenia, oops, I mean Turkey. Instead of a AAA guide book, they got their directions from two really scary looking wolf-dogs.

Well, even though me and my friends and associates all agree that we look just like friggin' Genghiz Khan down to the droopy 'staches[named my cockapoo after Genghiz, gotta represent to my homies], I read this turd in the genetic punchbowl:

"DNA results suggests the lack of strong genetic relationship between the Mongols and the Turks despite the close relationship of their languages and shared historical neighborhood. Anatolians do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the ancient Asian Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance, it is not genetically detectable."

WTF, dude, are they saying we're just Islamized Armo's, Greeks, Arabs and Assyrians? That is totally unacceptable, dude. I am a brave Turk, no way can i be of these other groups. Just ask Turkes, he knows what time it is.

Please send me enlightenment, or order the bad scientists all dead.

Thanks again,

goon.

I couldn't stop laughing, from one post to the other. Bravo!

Goon's favorite pic:

http://www.temizeller.net/temizhaber/haber_imaj/ergenekon.jpg

Ergun,

MORE TO PRAY ABOUT:

Hurriyet Daily News with wires

ISTANBUL - Two leading suspects in the murder of prominent Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink fought one another in the eighth hearing of the case in a local court in Beşiktaş.

Yasin Hayal and Erhan Tuncel, two suspected inciters of Dink’s murder argued and Hayal struck Tuncel, who was sitting in front of him.

The brother of Yasin Hayal, Osman Hayal, said, "My brother is a victim of a plot. Everything happened after he met Erhan Tuncel," reported the private news site CNNTürk. Tuncel intervened and said, "What does it have to do with me?" Yasin Hayal replied, "You get the money, you get the wage, I have the trouble." Hayal then punched Tuncel, causing the judge to send them out of the courtroom. After the murder, it was disclosed that Tuncel was working as a police informer at the time. The gunman, Ogün Samast, did not participate in the hearing.

Not remembering
Osman Hayal, who is being tried without being kept in custody, testified in court that he had nothing to do with the murder. Hayal said the only thing he knew was that he was in Istanbul on the date of murder and nothing more.

"It is a complete coincidence that I left Istanbul one hour after the murder," he said. Arzu Becerik, the Dink family’s lawyer, said there were contradictions in Osman Hayal’s testimonies. Hayal had given evidence previously as a witness and was added as a suspect to the case after it was disclosed he was in Istanbul on the date of the murder.

Zafer Üskül, head of the parliamentary commission on human rights, Sebahat Tuncel and Akın Birdal, Democratic Society Party, or DTP, deputies, Ufuk Uras, deputy of the Freedom and Solidarity Party, or ÖDP, and the Dink family also participated in the hearing, private news site BİANET reported. Dink was shot and died on Jan. 17, 2007, in central Şişli in front of the building of the multilingual weekly Agos, where he was the editor in chief.

ERGUN AT MONGOLIAN BARBECUE

Waiter: Welcome to Mongolian Barbecue

Ergun: My Brother! I share with you a glorious history of Mongol and Turkic Blood and deeds! I am thrilled to be here, with our blood relatives of the Steppes, founders of the 17 Empires, heroes of all History. We toast Genghiz, Timur the Lame, and all the Great Khans! Do you serve mare's blood? I set up a yurt in the backyard for the grandchildren. The Cockapoo likes it a lot. Hail my Mongol brother!

Waiter: I'm Chinese. Want to order?

I miss Error-gun...

TRY NEW REPUBLIC, LOS ANGELES TIMES, TURKISH FORUM

Regarding jda's horrid "ERGUN AT MONGOLIAN BARBECUE":

The Mongols were the greatest enemies of the Turks. They wiped out the Seljuks, and nearly wiped out the Ottomans. That should make them heroes to the very racist "jda."

Regarding 1915AGHistory's

- - - - - - - - - -

About the Hovhannes Katchaznouni booklet:

1. Its authenticity is in question to this day; and it is reasonable to have the notion that it may be a Turkish invention, given the history of denial by the Turkish state.

2. The booklet (of the English translation) is from a Turkish translation of a supposedly Russian-language original that a Turkish "historian" by the name of Mehmet Perincek discovered in the Russian State Library (Moscow). You make of that what you will.

So, then, where is the original for all to dissect? Why isn't this a point of discussion among scholars on both sides?"

- - - - - - - - - -

The 1955 booklet was a product of the Armenian Information Service, by Arthur Derounian. He was an Armenian patriot. Its entirety has been made online. A copy is available in the Russian archives, which has been translated by M. Perincek, given that the 1955 Armenian version was abridged. In his English translation, Perincek used Derounian's version exactly for the passages that appeared in the 1955 booklet. It was "Translated from the Original by Matthew A. Callender." (This information was specified in the Dec. 17 entry of the page preceding this one, at http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/election-2008/local-armenian-genocide-denier/)

Of course, 1915AGHistory's intention has nothing to do with history. The reason why he has not heard of Katchaznouni's manifesto, or any of the many other Armenian and Western sources disproving an Ottoman extermination campaign, is because he chooses only to consult his propaganda. Because it is propaganda, and propagandizers have agendas, and honesty is the last thing propagandizers have in mind, that is why the 1923 manifesto is not a "a point of discussion" on the side 1915AG History prefers. His side does not consist of scholars, but of those who have reached conclusions from the outset, and will only utilize information that will affirm their conclusion, and will make sure to omit the rest.

I've spent time tonight looking at this page and the one that preceded it at http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/election-2008/local-armenian-genocide-denier/ (On this page, there is a good explanation as to why the Speedy Gonzales reference had nothing to do with racism, since 1915AGHistory makes this accusation here; see Nov. 4 entry by Ergun Kirlikovali.)

The genocide believers here are, as typical, behaving in appalling fashion. Instead of looking at the facts of this tragic history, we have terrible character assassination attempts, and silly challenges for boxing matches. Facts that are inconvenient are ignored, or as 1915AGHistory has demonstrated, unethically discredited. There is no point in discussing matters with such rude, dishonest, and set-in-their-ways people as these.

As for Gustav's:

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hoo-boy! Now, I'm not an Ottoman Empire expert, but I do know that Armenians were under its rule, and it's a hallmark of empire-apologists that its conquered people loved being conquered people, and it's the conquered people's fault when they dared tried to become a free nation or get more rights from its rulers. The key word in Kirlikovali's rant is "treason," something he brings up again and again in comments all across the World Wide Web, as if he's personally insulted Armenians wanted their own country. Worse than that, he has the gall to ridicule the memories and reports of Armenians and their suffering as "propaganda," cast Turks as the true victims in all this, and then ask the people the Ottoman government slaughtered for an apology! Maybe Kirlikovali should begin contributing to the Institute for Historical Review?

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Yes, you are right, Gustav. You are not an expert of this history by any stretch of the imagination. So when you make your comments based only upon the propaganda that you have consulted, you reveal yourself as a very biased and unfair party -- and anything but an intellectual.

The Armenians were a conquered people well before the arrival of the Turks. The Seljuk Turks defeated the Byzantines, under whose rule the Armenians were terribly oppressed. The Armenian historians of this period tearfully expressed joy for the freedoms that the Seljuks had granted them.

The Ottomans then followed, and the Armenians benefited through the Millet System which granted the Armenians an internal autonomy. This is what allowed the Armenians to not only prosper for many centuries, but to retain their culture, language and religion. This is why the Ottomans were known for their great tolerance, and precisely why such tolerance led to their downfall. Other empires, like the Russians, British and even Americans (with vanquished Indians and Hawaiians), did not treat their minorities anywhere near as kindly.

It was only after the Ottomans appeared on the way out wth the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish war did greedy Armenian leaders from outside the empire resort to terrorism, to get what they could. They did this by conducting massacres of the Muslims (in the 1890s and beyond - did you read Kirlikovali's Nov. 5 entry on the other page, regarding what the missionary Cyrus Hamlin wrote? No, you did not care about that, or anything else, which tells us the truth is not foremost on your mind), in order to incite counter-violence, which would have invited the European imperalists to come in, and to give the Armenians the rewards they were looking for.

This program on the part of the Armenians changed by the time of WWI, when they decided to fully ally themselves with their nation's enemies at war. They rebelled across the empire, and when they took over Van in April 1915, to hold it for their Russian allies, that is when the Ottomans transferred the lot of them to regions that were farther away. Many nations have done the exact same thing, even when their targeted people were not disloyal. (For example, the U.S. and Canada during WWII.)

Some Armenians died from murder; the program was not well conducted. But the ones doing the murdering were criminals acting on their own, like Kurd tribes. Most Armenians, like most Muslims, died of famine and disease. More soldiers died from hunger than through combat.

When you write lines such as "the people the Ottoman government slaughtered," you prove your inadequacy. There is no proof that the Ottoman gov't was behind the ones who were murdered. You are welcome to point to the proof if you have it. The British tried to find exactly this proof at WWI's end, via the Malta Tribunal, but could not.

It is not ethical to make such an accusation, especially of a high crime, if you do not have the proof. Would it be all right if someone were to accuse you of murder, giving only their opinion as the proof?

When you wrote "he has the gall to ridicule the memories and reports of Armenians and their suffering," the point is this: none of those reports PROVE a genocide. He is not ridiculing the great suffering of the Armenians. Every Turk acknowledges that the Armenians suffered terribly during this inhuman time.

The question is whether there was a genocide or not. Genocide, in the sense of the 1948 UN Convention, where intent must be proven.

You may choose to belittle it as much as you want, but "treason" is nothing to laugh at. It is the most serious crime in every country. The Armenians were guilty of it. And it is not like they were oppressed, as the propaganda you emotionally believe tells us. The Armenians were the crown princes of the Ottoman Empire; most of the bank accounts belonged to them.

When the Armenians stabbed their nation in the back, during a time when three big world powers were planning to divide the Turkish nation between themselves, that was treason of the first order. Probably few other nations would have dealt as humanely with such dangerous traitors as the Ottomans did. (Two-thirds of the original Armenian population, one million people, survived; the Patriarch accounted for 644,900 still in the empire in 1921, and 400,000-500,000 had left to lands not controlled by the Ottomans during the war. If there was a real genocide, only very few could have possibly survived.)

What the Armenians did was appalling. They controlled areas of Eastern Anatolia that stretched over a third into the country's eastern portion by Dec. 1916. All the Muslim villagers, as well as Jews and others not Christian-Armenian, were defenseless (with the men away at war) and subjected to extermination. Not only because Armenians, as they were a minority, hoped to increase the chances for the victorious allies to grant them these lands, but because the racism that Armenians were bred with led them to regard Turksh people as less than human. They not only murdered hundreds of thousands, but frrequently mutilated them. We know, for one, because their allies themselves reported the great crimes of the Armenians.

So when you wrote, Kirlikovali "has the gall to ... cast Turks as the true victims in all this," you are wrong on two counts. Kirlikovali is not neglecting that Armenians were victims. Secondly, the Turks were true victims, not INSTEAD OF, but AS WELL. In fact, they were more victimized in a sense, because hundreds of thousands were murdered (The British colonel Wooley estimated 300,000-400,000 in Van and Bitlis alone) in a true systematic extermination campaign, whereas the bulk of the 500,000-600,000 Armenians who died in all (I know you believe "1.5 million." That was the total pre-war population, however; see references on your other page as Jannaan's Nov. 3 entry) lost their lives from non-muderous reasons, that the majority of all other Ottomans died of, as well. This serves as no parallel whatsoever to the Jews in Nazi Germany..

Of course your racist Armenian allies on this page, the ones who are quick to smear those they do not like as being "racist" because it is a great way to detract from the historical truths, do not acknowledge these Muslim and Turkish victims. To do so will make clear the Armenians were mass murderers. That does not sit well with their agenda, to show the Armenians solely as victims.

Also, your racist Armenian allies have trouble with acknowledging Turkish victims, because many are trained to regard Turks in a category that does not include humans.

But what's your excuse, Gustav? As a Latino, you weren't raised to hate Turkish people. But you are dangerously not caring about the historical truths, nor about the tremendouos victimization of the Turks. Do they not qualify as human beings to you either? Or is it because to your mind, Muslims don't count?

This was a one-shot appearance on my end. No doubt these hateful and irrational and dishonest allies of yours will continue with the immature line so sadly evidenced on this page. They are, unfortunately, beyond hope. Perhaps one day you can break out of this bigoted rut, Gustav, and think in humanist, and not partisan, terms.
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Andy,

While I appreciate the passion which impels you to seek to address everything all at once, passion is a not a substitute for close or careful reading.

1. Yes, pretty much everyone with a room temperature IQ knows that Mongols fought Seljuks, and fought pretty much everyone else other than Fijians and Navajos. However, the Mongols are considered a Turkic group on account of language and culture. Genghiz Khan's actual name "temujin" means iron-smith in turkic .

Two linguistically related groups can fight each other: One can just as handily point out that fights between the British and the Germans are fights - deadly ones to be sure -by two Germanic language speaking groups.

2. The Ergun eats Mongolian lampoon is merely humor, not a history lesson. I use humor and lampoon not to teach history, but to point out the racist idiocy of Ergun's 'Happy is he who can say he is aTurk" nonsense. In these and other pages, Ergun has posted Victorian Orientalist authors pointing out the supposed racial characteristics of Turks (always good) and Armenians (always bad). This sort of thing reached its unhappy zenith in Victorian times, and the rot of racial stereotypes pretty much was destroyed in the last embers of Berlin, 1945. Whatever the Turkish case may be, this is a shoddy foundation.

3. Nowhere have I said a racist thing about Turks or anyone else. If you can cite a valid example by anyone else, I will repudiate it.

4. One of the many problems with the "Turkish viewpoint" is that it dismisses scholarship with which it otherwise claims to agree, and suppresses all dissent to boot. Simple examples: Lewy at page 122 dismisses as a "travesty of history" the "civil war" thesis you, Ergun, and all the other TA advocates advance. Lewy also quotes with approval the Turkish historian Derengel who wrote that Armenians suffered "colossal crimes" in Anatolia and Syria. He points outthat murdering the unarmed and defenseless while under the guard of state actors is not akin to much smaller scale internecine fighting, or even brigandage.

5. Even if the civil war thesis was valid, it does not excuse or diminish Genocide. Defenseless and unarmed elderly, men and women were murdered not by angry villagers, but by Gendarmes and special action units. The pattern was the same throughout Anatolia, prompting former Agnostoic Ottomanist Donald Quataert to write that the use of a common pattern implies a central plan. He has written since 2000 it was Genocide. The plan was to kill the men immediately, usually in a town jail or at the outskirts of towns, and then to killl the women and children, or to rape, abduct etc. These things were done over a period of months, not all at once. If 'civil war" was a defense to Genocide, then there was also no Genocide in Bosnia, Kosovo, or Darfur - in each case the Governments claimed correctly that the victim groups rose up in revolt. The oppressed usually do.

6. None of these things were unknown or mysterious when they were happening. There are hundreds of reports and quotes from German and Turkish sources, including from Ataturk himself.

If you think it is "racist' to point these things out, there is no hope for dialogue or resolution.

7. If Armenians promote to national office or make a spokesman anyone as racist as Kirlikovali, I would condemn them. Your defense of indefensible racism shows a blind spot. First, the use of 'Speedy Gonzalez" is a racist remark. Ask any Mexican. After Arellano and others told him to stop, he persisted. But Kirlikovali's commenst were not limited to that: he also told this Mexican American that he should not do things as they are done in Tijuana. The implication that anyone can see is that Mexicans do things in a slipshod, careless way. Happy to provide the quote.

Andy,

Apparently Erdogan thinks Mongols are Turkic too:

Turkey has built a museum in Ulan Bator and that they are planning to open another museum in the region near the grave stones, too, to which Erdogan gives the good news, he also says: "Mongolia thus will be a field of attraction, more people will come here and Mongolia will become an important place in the world of tourism. It will draw attention as a symbol of the Turkish world. The most important factor in tourism is the road. While there is no road, nobody can go there. We are building permanent works for the Turkish world

andy,

Read my post 34 if u think me a racist.

Tell me y ergun's posts about Armenians aren't

Andy,

Once again, about the Hovhannes Katchaznouni booklet:

1. Its authenticity is in question to this day; and it is reasonable to have the notion that it may be a Turkish invention, given the history of denial by the Turkish state.

2. The booklet (of the English translation) is from a Turkish translation of a supposedly Russian-language original that a Turkish "historian" by the name of Mehmet Perincek discovered in the Russian State Library (Moscow). You make of that what you will.

So, then, where is the original for all to dissect? Why isn't this a point of discussion among scholars on both sides?

Your entire post was a poor attempt at obfuscation, Andy. You failed miserably. I hadn't heard of the booklet? Don't make ASSumptions. Genocide deniers quote from that "source" on a regular basis. But my point stands: present the original and make your argument. Where is the original? We're supposed to take the Turkish translation of a purportedly "Russian-language original" at face value? That's not going to happen.

The Armenian Genocide is a historical fact. Clear your mind of your imaginary version of events and be at peace with yourself or live out the rest of your life in denial. That's what it comes down to. But I'm sure you'll keep living the lie.

BTW, have you heard? Perincek (from the elder) may be of Armenian lineage. Have you had your family tree checked lately?

Andy: OF COURSE you're going to return and read these comments, You sound just like Ergun, giving a fairy tale of Armenian ingratitude and painting the Ottoman Empire as this Eden for all involved. Sorry to break this to you, Andy, but when a conquered people try for freedom, that ain't treason—and to classify what happened to the Armenians as that is disgusting. Of course, in your long, rambling message, you also failed to actually spell my name correctly, so that should show readers the veracity of the rest of what you write. Say hi to Ergun for the rest of us non-cretins!

Oh, and the old anti-Muslim, anti-Turk slur? Amateur.

Andy,

Read de Nogales, a source who is widely characterized as anti-Armenian. He was an officer in the Ottoman Army. Here is a characterization of what one author says appears in his book, which is highly anti Armenian in many respects:

"Mehmet Reshid [governor of Diyarbekir] was not above manufacturing evidence. He purported to find a cache of weapons by going through the Armenian houses. We actually know the exact number of weapons, because it was reported to the military-they found 12 weapons. Rafael de Nogales, a Venezuelan mercenary for the Turkish army, when shown the pictures of the weapons, saw them as a falsification. De Nogales had an interview with Reshid, where Reshid said he had an order from Talaat Pasha to "Burn. Destroy. Kill." Three words. Reshid was scaring the government by constantly talking about kaimakans that were killed by the Armenians and large numbers of weapons that the Armenians had. His killing of Armenians was so extensive, that even the German government, allies of Ottoman Turkey, tried to force the government to dismiss him. Reshid deported or killed 120,000 Armenians from his province by September 1915."

Read it for yourself. Unlike Professor Lewy, whom the T establishment adores, you do not seem to grasp that alleged [and exaggerated] atrocities by Armenians do not justify killing defenseless women and children under guard. If it did, if the law of the jungle ruled, then no Turk can complain of Armenians killing Turks without legal cause then or at any time. We agree that murder is always wrong, don't we?

"We agree that murder is always wrong, don't we?"

Here is the catch: on the average, Turks believe that Soghomon Tehlirian (as well as anyone else that meted out justice/punishment to the murderous Ottoman/Turkish savages) was a "murderer."

The fact is that the Ottoman/Turkish population was equally responsible for the genocide, because they served their leadership and carried out the unimaginable brutality to exterminate the Armenians. When present-day Turks refer to Soghomon Tehlirian as a "murderer" or "terrorist," they reflect the sentiments of their ancestors and they bring their nation that much further into contempt. It's almost as though the Turks are a people without a heart; and this view is of their own cause, brought on by their own actions, by their lack of decency, for not admitting to that which is so obvious to everyone else. Rare are the Akcams and Pamuks.

What else could be expected from a nation that renders "Jew" and "Armenian" as racial slurs?

Tehlirian was acquitted after a full trial, so nobody can complain that it was murder, it was an adjudicated case.

I know plenty of Turks and Kurds who admit the G. I don't believe in group guilt.