Our post earlier today about the turmoil at Irvine's Faith Community Church has already sparked discussion on its friend's blog (more below) and a comment from the church's leader, Robert Morey. And it's not just any comment--it's one so pompous and hilarious it deserved its own post. Here it is:
We who actually attend Faith Community Church don’t see any schism or confusion in the church. We are happy and joyful serving the Lord. Our attendance is great and things are moving forward with great joy. To see this is true, just visit some Sunday service (10:30AM at 17601 Fitch, Irvine).
Just for accuracy sake, please note that biblicalthought.com/blog was not set up by or run by the church. I visit it from time to time when I have the time. But it is not my blog.
There are three new books that reveal a new phenomenon is taking place today in the church world.
1. Clergy Killers: Guidance for Pastors and Congregations Under Attack by G. Lloyd Rediger
2. Character Assassins: Dealing with Ecclesiastical Tyrants and Terrorists by Peter Hammond and Brian
3. The Wounded Minister: Healing from and Preventing Personal Attacks by Guy Greenfield
These books document that today when someone leaves a church, they do not go out and make a new life for themselves and get involved in positive works of charity. Instead, they dedicate all their time, money, and energy to destroy the church and pastor they left.
They hang around the church and use the internet to slander the church, send out malicious emails and blogs that contain unsupported accusations. They harass the people who attend the church with personal attacks and foul language. They forget there is freedom of religion in this country and people can attend or not attend whatever they want to attend.
The above authors counsel churches under attack by such terrorists not to react to these childish tirades and temper tantrums. Instead, we should remain positive and go on doing works of charity -while ignoring the terrorists.
These poor mentally unbalanced people, whose only meaning in life to tear down other people, will eventually burn themselves out with all their hatred and bitterness.
We at Faith community Church do not hate them or anyone else. We pray for them that they will grow out of their negativity and finds positive outlets for their energy.
My thoughts--few of them nice--after the jump.
Wow, Morey. Calling your critics "terrorists" and "mentally unbalanced." Even the pedophile apologists over at the Diocese of Orange don't use such terms to deride naysayers. Thank God you didn't name names, otherwise you'd have a slander suit against you quick. Also, I don't see anyone calling for FCC to get shut down, so to talk about freedom of religion is as red a herring as one can get.
And point of reference about biblicalthought.com: I never said it was the blog of FCC. But now that you mention it...when Morey states that the blog "was not set up by or run by the church. I visit it from time to time when I have the time. But it is not my blog," he's only half-right and otherwise lying. Biblicalthought.com isn't the official blog of FCC, but it is the blog of Faith Defenders, Morey's longtime organization. And Morey isn't any mere visitor to the blog, as he claims above: he's listed as a contributor, and this page states that Biblicalthought.com features "Dr. Morey and others writ[ing] articles in defense of the faith." On the blog, Morey's picture lords above everyone else's--either Biblicalthought.com is Morey's blog, or it's a third-rate personality cult built around Morey and his Texas chili recipe.
By the way, Bob: still advocate bombing Mecca?
April 25, 2008 01:16
Faith Defenders and Faith Community Church are not the same organization, that is probably your biggest confusion about the BT blog. Since they are separate entities, there is no genetic connection between FCC and BT/FD. Many of BT's community have never darkened the doorstep of FCC, and many are from out-of-state/country.
BT is not Morey's blog. Dr. Morey is only a contributing author. He writes blogs at his leisure and emails them to BT moderators to post them in his name. It isn't expected of to you do any real research for tabloid reporting, I'm just letting you know for the record - or for anyone rational who happens to enjoy truth.
April 25, 2008 01:32
Stephen: And you're making the same mistake like Morey in asserting I'm saying Faith Defenders and Faith Community Church are the same place--can you tell me where I said this? To say that Faith Defenders and Faith Community Church don't have any "genetic connection" is disingenuous. Do both not have the same person as their leader? It's like saying the Lincoln Club and the OC Republican Party have no shared origins.
Same thing with Biblicalthought.com. Is it or is it not Faith Defenders' blog? If it is, I stand by calling it Morey's blog since it's the official blog of his organization. If it has no affiliation with Faith Defenders, then someone has to clean up his website to reflect that. And if it isn't his blog, why on Earth is his picture twice as big as the pictures of BT's other contributors?
April 25, 2008 06:02
Morey is everything wrong with Christianity--tell us, Morey: who do you hawk nothing but your own books on your websites?? Only the WORD should govern people's lives, not the rantings of a Pharisee!
April 25, 2008 07:51
If Jesus Christ were to come back to Earth to re-do His original mission, it would be the so-called "Christians" like Morey, who unfortunately would re-crucify Him.
April 25, 2008 07:57
Maybe I'm not completely awake and don't have my glasses on yet, but is Robert Morey looking to win the "Steven Colbert Look-Alike Contest"?
However, unlike Mr. Colbert, it would appear Mr. Morey ain't got much going in the "truthiness" department.
April 25, 2008 08:41
Stephen says: "or for anyone rational who happens to enjoy truth."
This is funny. It describes the qualities of everyone who is not associated with BT, in my experience with them at least.
The way they operate at BT (what they will call "defending truth") is they ignore your critiques of their positions (i.e. they don't even bother answering them) and then when you show time and time again where they have misrepresented the truth they finally attack your character and then censor you (delete all further posts on their blog). All the while they call everyone ELSE to "repent" and turn to God while they themselves have apparently already received saint-hood and need not practice what they preach.
I would be happy to copy to this blog the number of mistakes Morey made in reviewing a book by Greg Boyd if anyone is interested. I showed Morey numerous places where he completely mischaracterized Boyd. Not once did Morey address those issues. He called me an antichrist and then blocked me from further posts. You can read it all by clicking here: http://biblicalthought.com/blog/a-review-of-gregory-boyds-trinity-and-process/
I have copied the blog and saved it should they decide to delete my critique (a move I would not be surprised to see).
peace,
Chad
April 25, 2008 09:25
Morey's words speak for themselves. His mouth keeps digging him deeper and deeper. Morey, you should really think before you speak. He sure does not sound like someone who is so "happy and joyful serving the Lord." I hope that people will finally begin to see the truth. And I pray that those outside the Christian faith would not veiw us all in light of this situation. For not all Christians behave in this manner and our God is a good and gracious God.
April 25, 2008 09:44
Below is a recent attack made by Morey to a commentor on his blog who dared to question whether he was wrong to denounce others so arrogantly has he has been known to do. He says:
1 Tim. 5:19 gives the members (sheep) of a local church the way to deal with their leaders if one of them falls into biblically defined sin. When an elder falls into sin, he is to be restored with gentleness and love (Gal. 6:1). He is to be addressed with respect and not angrily rebuked (1 Tim. 5:1). The members should appeal to him as one appeals to his father.
Where in Scripture are we given a command, example, or precept for using slander and gossip to fight a ministry? Nowhere. Does not the Bible command us:
“Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.” (Eph. 5:31-320?
If an email, letter or blog comment manifests “bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, and malice” what does God tell us to do with it? To “put it away from you.”
katelaben, do you claim that Jesus is your Lord? Then how can you call Him Lord if you disobey his commands? If Jesus is your Lord, then you will write back an apology.
That last line is nothing more than spiritual abuse. It is the kind of tactics Morey uses again and again when anyone dares to question his "eldership." An eldership that is backed by fake and forged degrees, no less.
But besides all of that, Morey uses the Bible as a weapon to advance his own agenda. He uses it not unlike the Crusaders of old, the slave ownders and racists who still populate many churches,even the KKK and Hitler. The Bible is a dangerous thing indeed in the hands of egomaniacs like this.
God have mercy on him and his cultish following.
April 25, 2008 10:14
Stephen,
The truth is you refuse to acknowledge what is right, instead you jumped in to defend your leader without any knowledge or clarity of mind.
FCC is under FD. When FCC first started, you made your checks payable to Faith Defenders! Because FCC was under FD. FD was registered as a church. So is there a link between FCC and FD? Absolutely! An eight year old could figure that out. Just look at the website of www.faithdefenders.com/blog. How do you explain this?
Where is the error in Gustavo's post? Perhaps equating FCC and FD? But where did he say that? You are caught with pants down. Please tell us where did he say that.
Perhaps BT was created by you (and not Morey) but now it has evolved into Morey having the biggest picture. Sure, Morey comes in and out but thats speaking for half the world's bloggers. Who stays 24/7 on their blog? Only if you live with your mama and still gets your monthly allowances.
Stephen, why are you reading and commenting in this blog? I thought your leader told you not to read blogs that attack him or entertain calls from terrorist?
April 25, 2008 11:28
Congratulations to Chad for fulfilling "Godwin's Law" which states, "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis and/or Hitler approaches one."
In all seriousness Chad, in this case the analogy is (frighteningly) spot-on.
April 25, 2008 12:40
As someone who used to attend FCC, I have first hand experience with the arrogance of Bob Morey. When I used to get asked by friends and family where I went to church, there was a universal response: “That guy may be knowledgeable, but he is arrogant and devise.” They are right and the influence of Bob Morey affects his members. Just run into one of them and many are likewise arrogant and devise.
April 25, 2008 13:28
As a former member of FCC the distinction being made by Morey between FD/FCC/BT is ridiculous. At least two (not including one former employee) of "the Crew" listed as contributers on BT are employees of FD; one of whom designed the websites for all three "seperate" entities. These people's paychecks are signed by Morey. For Morey, or anyone else, to claim that Morey is merely a "contributer" or that there is no affiliation between FD/FCC/BT,when it is so obviously not the case, is poor casuistry at best and a downright lie at worst.
To hide behind some organizational chart smacks of coawradice on Morey's part. But then again, if I were him I'd want to distance myself from the irrational invectives regularly spewed forth by "the (Kool Aid) crew."
Try censoring Morey's posts or start threads devoted to specifically disagreeing with ole Bob and the folks at BT will quickly see who's in charge and why his photo looms so large over his stooges.
April 25, 2008 16:34
Joseph said:
“FCC is under FD. When FCC first started, you made your checks payable to Faith Defenders! Because FCC was under FD. FD was registered as a church. So is there a link between FCC and FD? Absolutely! An eight year old could figure that out.”
But would an eight year old enjoy such a sophisticated fallacy such as yours regardless of its lack of eloquence?
1) What is your justification for implying the immutability of an entity?
2) Is there historical significance to the establishment of FCC?
3) If your proposition (FCC is under FD) were false, would it raise or lower the age-range for comprehension?
“You are caught with pants down. Please tell us where did he say that.[sic]”
First, please tell me where I said he said that. Since we are not allowing inferential statements, show me the cold facts or drop ‘em and join me.
“Only if you live with your mama and still gets your monthly allowances.”
I’m sorry you miss yo mama so bad. It still does not make BT “Morey’s blog.”
“Stephen, why are you reading and commenting in this blog? I thought your leader told you not to read blogs that attack him or entertain calls from terrorist?”
You thought wrong! You have fallen into the trap of believing tabloid-style reporting based on pure gossip and slander. Provide the source for what you “thought.” He has never told me not to do any of those things you’ve mentioned. Prove it or drop ‘em.
April 25, 2008 17:01
The first post by Stephen where he attempts to distance the BiblicalThought Blog from Morey is completely misleading. Simply to go YouTube and visit the Faith Defenders channel page (http://youtube.com/faithdefenders2008). Notice that there are three web sites listed under the companies heading on the left side of the page. This clearly demonstrates the linkage between these web sites/companies and further demonstrates they all fall under the umbrella of Supreme leader Bob Morey.
April 25, 2008 17:03
ccg said: "To hide behind some organizational chart smacks of coawradice on Morey's part."
These challenges are meaningless when they come from the "shriveled" pair of one hiding behind a pseudonym. Verifiable first and last names, or links that ID are respectable. Anything short of that is mere poop.
Enjoy your "whine" from your sour grapes!
I will seriously laugh-out-loud if I get a comment in the moderation cue of BT from Reformed Gustavo!
ccg, you're a cowardly wimp!
April 25, 2008 17:21
“Stephen, why are you reading and commenting in this blog? I thought your leader told you not to read blogs that attack him or entertain calls from terrorist?”
It was actually in an insert in the church bulletin several weeks ago Steven.However it was addressed to us from the 'board' whoever that is.Would you like me to type it out for you here?
April 25, 2008 17:25
I feel like I am watching a train wreck in action and I admit it is hard not to rubber neck. Several posters on BT are now coming out and saying that there is some real reasons for the division at FCC and that Morey is wrong for calling them "terrorists" (I agree). Stephen Macasil, who I guess is Morey's PR guy, jumps in and once again tries to convince everyone the sky isn't blue by saying:
"Well, I tell you again, there is no FCC situation. We’re fine. Now, is there a situation outside? Sure, but that isn’t an FCC situation. Since there is fully documented evidence to present to any questions that may arise from within FCC’s walls regarding any outside criticism, the issue remains outside while peace, joy, and love exist and remain inside."
Yeah. Every place I have ever been that is full of "peace, joy, and love" has the sort of problems facing Morey and FCC. While they say there are plenty of facts to refute the accusations against them, where are they?
As a pastor I hate to see any church self destruct like this and watch people who profess to be Christians calling those who leave "terrorists" or "antichrists." Even if it were true I would never stoop to such baseness. Watching this fiasco is like watching what happens in 100% of the secular work places I have been part of in life - they are all self-serving and self-seeking and aim to cut those down to a notch lower than yourself so that you can get ahead. That is a worldly mentality and the exact opposite of what we are called to be by Christ. I hate to see a church self destruct, but I think it is becoming increasingly evident that FCC doesn't deserve to be called a church. At least not one that would be confused with the mark Jesus gave his followers: They shall know you by your love (John 13:35).
grace and peace,
Chad
April 25, 2008 18:16
Stephen: Laugh all you want, but you still haven't answered my questions. You talk about shriveled pairs, but your silence and laughable bragaddocio suggests you're approaching castrati levels.
April 25, 2008 18:23
And readers: Stephen is the guy who's so brave he had to beg readers to comment at Morey's blog.
April 25, 2008 18:54
Gustavo whined: "...you still haven't answered my questions."
OK, but this doesn't give you my permission to write rag articles about me with sexual references like you did here.">http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-that-oc-religion/moreys-morons-begging-for-comm/">here.
“And you're making the same mistake like Morey in asserting I'm saying Faith Defenders and Faith Community Church are the same place--can you tell me where I said this?”
Can you tell me where I said you said this? As with “Joseph,” since inferential statements are not allowed…
“Do both not have the same person as their leader?”
Yes, His name is Jesus Christ and he will return one Day with wrath and fury to judge the living and the dead. In His name I call you to repent from your wickedness and turn to God from idols. As the only one with love for you here, I tell you the truth – repent or perish! See BT for more…
“Is it or is it not Faith Defenders' blog?”
It obviously is, duh.
“And if it isn't his blog, why on Earth is his picture twice as big as the pictures of BT's other contributors?”
We had an FD blog conference last September and we discussed picture size in one of the break out sessions. At first, we decided to size them according to salary, but decided against it at the last minute due to a weakness in syllogism #17. We kicked around several ideas using some of the most advanced technology available (MS pie charts, 03 powerpoint presentations, sundials, calculators, etc.)! We were divided on the issues, so we ultimately came up with sizing the pictures relative to heathen target. Since Dr. Morey is the biggest target for heathens, he got the biggest picture. BT SECRET: If you zoom out, you will see that the background is not actually white. It’s actually a close-up of a small section of his teeth! That’s how big of a target he is for the heathen! Heathen like you, and nominal professing Christians like Joseph and ccg et al, hate this man with such a passionate hate (include the muslims, RC, EO, mormons, JW’s, and all other enemies of God) that the target increases daily! What makes him most hated is that it phases him none, he presses on and fights the good fight, runs the race, etc. He fears the frown of God, not y'all petty babbling folk.
Gustavo, how does it feel to be surrounded by so many professing Christians and have them as your allies? You’re in the cat-bird’s seat – they ain’t even evangelizing you! Ha. We’ll pray for all of y’all at the FCC Sweet Hours of Prayer tonight!
April 25, 2008 18:56
Stephen,
CCG is not a pseudonym it is my initials.
I must thank you though for showing true to form with more immature and irrational invectives. It really is very easy to illicit from you sadly.
As for my "challenges being meaningless" becuase of my supposed use of a "pseudonym" I suppose you would also have say that Abdullah Aziz's (a pseudonym for Robert A. Morey) challenges to Islam are also more "meaningless poop."
So the best argument you can make is "someone not using their full name cannot say anything meaningful?" That would make my open letter to Morey quite meaningful (www.bobmorey.com) according to your twisted logic. Oh, but I'm sure you're not willing to go that far.
Stephen, in all sincerity, I do pray that God will richly bless you. And in case you're next on Bob's hit list (trust me, you won't see it coming) know that there are many brothers and sisters who'll be there for you.
Lastly, have a little class please and raise the level of your vocabulary above that of elementary school potty talk.
April 25, 2008 19:18
Clark, you're right. I concede. I'm sorry. I'll disappear now. I apologize to everyone. Please forgive me.
April 25, 2008 19:29
Gustavo -
How come you will not post my comment? Do you need me to delete or change something?
Joel
April 25, 2008 19:49
Stephen -
I don't even know what to say to you. I wish my initial response I wrote to Morey's comments here would be let through. I give the editors permission to delete (but not add) something they find in it that is holding it up. But I have posted it in my blog in the comments section of the current post, Part 4.
But Stephen, I know you will just say I am whining and crying and all, but man, you whole attitude is so grievous. The Christians here may not be "witnessing" to unbelievers right at this moment (hardly appropriate moment) but your attitude and words are sure gonna make our job 100 times more difficult if we ever do get around to it (and ya, chill, I'm a solid 5 pointer). Your allegiance to this man is down right scary. I know you are just trying really hard to impress him so that he will like you and make you his right-hand-man, but I can almost guarantee you, in time, he will turn on you. And Clark is right, we will be there for you. If you ever venture over to my blog (I know your boss said not to do it, but if you ever rebel just a little), please don’t bring over this type of speech. I won’t delete you, I will just let all see it.
On biblicalthought.com Stephen says this to one person who just left the church and is choosing to remain anonymous because they fear attacks from Morey and his cool aide crew:
Stephen says: “You have personal issues, and you should address them in person! Or shut up! It’s really that simple.”
Yep, the love is evident.
April 25, 2008 20:53
Stephen: You don't answer a question with a question, so try again with your first query. Everything else is silliness and evading the questions--really defending your beliefs there! Man, I haven't encountered such aggressive, ignorant arrogance since the Scientologists.
Joel: I'm publishing all comments that come this blog's way. It does take time to show up, though, or perhaps they somehow don't go through. Rest assured, we're not censoring or deleting anyone's thoughts here.
April 25, 2008 20:58
Stephen,
You answered nothing.
Why is FCC receiving Sunday tithes with checks made payable to FD? You belong to the church and cannot answer a simple question.
"He has never told me not to do any of those things you’ve mentioned. Prove it or drop ‘em."
Thanks Jean for the answer.
Stephen, were you asleep on Sunday service? Your master told the entire church. You want me to purchase the overprice sermon CD for you to listen to it? Will you apologize for such a simple overlook or will your pride take control?
April 25, 2008 21:44
Readers: I left my above castrati comment over at Biblical Thought, but Stephen is so brave that he deleted it. Way to defend the saints, Steve!
April 25, 2008 21:59
For the non-Christians that may be reading these blogs, thanks to Gustavo for doing his part in aiding those seeking to expose mr. morey and see that justice is done. Ephesians 5:11 of the NT says Christians are "to expose the works of darkness (evils) in this present world. This is to be done especially when they occur in the church as sometimes con men work their way into positions to prey on innocent victims. Second, biblical Scripture commands to "to love thy neighbor...," which includes warning them or predators out to do them harm. There just happens to be a set of DVDs and CDs put together by the Wessel (sp?) brothers of Texas who testify they were one of mr. morey's victims. Bloggers at Joel site know the links to these items. They interview numerous individuals who likewise testify to be victims of mr. morey. The set includes documentation to back up their allegations against mr. morey, who they term a con man. The accounts leave one with the distinct feeling that mr. morey is a con artist, thief, liar, slanderer of Christian saints, and that he moves from victim to victim in his consistent schemes over the years in numerous states. In trying to live up in part to the aforementioned Scripture, the ex-FCC Christians desire to expose mr. morey's schemes, tactics, lies, slander et. al in the interest of justice, hoping that there will not be one more person in the United States who falls victims to the documented wickedry of mr. robert moroney. This is not a case of Christians debating each other about the division of a church over the meaning of a passage or some such silly thing. Many of them have been victimized by mr. morey and in loving their neighbor hope to warn them to run as far away from this man as they can, lest they fall into his trap. mr. morey's unrevealed secret in how he keeps people in his cult is that the convinces them their is "no where else (church) they can go to get his quality of teaching" They willingly gulp this down, allowing themselves to fall into blindness, thus the reason they turn their head and ignore his wickedry he practices on many people. It is sheer idolatry of mr. morey that blinds them to the truths many have brought forth that shine the light on mr. morey's dark schemes according to documented testimony from the Wessel information and from the recent exoduses that took place at FCC.
April 25, 2008 22:25
Just for the record (though Joel blogged it first), I tried to take up Darrin's offer and review the evidence that Morey supposedly has against those people who have left FCC. I've called at several different times of the day, over several days, and left 2 messages. I offered, against the counsel of others, to come alone and at whatever day and time was convenient for them.
I have not received a call back.
I can't say I'm terribly surprised, because I asked to see the "overwhelming evidence" that Morey claimed he had against Clark back in January of 2007. He said he had evidence, and that evidence supposedly included "eyewitnesses" to Clark's "sin". I asked several individuals that remained at FCC after the controversy, who the "witnesses" were. I was surprised that even his own board member could never find out who these supposed witnesses were.
To me, it feels like the same shell-and-pea game again in 2008.
For someone who's drawn such criticism and yet repeatedly refused to back up his claims against people, I'm only left to conclude that there is no evidence and there never was.
I just wanted the truth: if Morey had evidence, I genuinely wanted to see it. No games, no casuistry . Indeed, I was surprised at Morey's accusations against Clark, but would've been willing to be convinced had the proper requirements been met. No attempt, beyond a non-argument that sounds something like "I'm Dr. Bob and I'm effectively beyond question" was offered. Read Clark's open letter for my email exchange with Morey.
April 25, 2008 22:43
Response to Morey Part 1
For the Record:
Let me attempt to clarify the situation with a dose of truth.
I attended Dr. Morey's church, Faith Community Church, in Irvine, for about 5 years. I was also involved and helped his ministry Faith Defenders as well as worked for a short time at his California Biblical University and Seminary where I helped create syllabi for undergraduate courses. My wife and I served faithfully and tithed faithfully to the church and ministry. We were in charge of running the kids ministry. I was a deacon and also publicly ordained by Dr. Morey as a minister of the gospel. I preached numerous times for him on Sunday mornings when he was gone; I also taught his Monday night apologetics course at times. I was a regular teacher for the Sunday Seminary classes that took place before the main service. I taught courses in Evangelism, Hermeneutics, and Greek. I was also involved with four other men in an eldership program/think tank there. I oversaw a men's discipleship cell in the South County and I preached to all the men on the importance of discipleship at the men's retreat. I only say all this to help what I am saying have some inside knowledge and credibility. I learned a lot of good stuff while I was there under his teaching. I wish that were the whole story. I eventually left the church with my family because I lost all respect for Dr. Morey as a man and even to a large degree, as a scholar.
Let me now address some of the comments that Dr. Morey posted here.
Morey said:
We who actually attend Faith Community Church don’t see any schism or confusion in the church. We are happy and joyful serving the Lord. Our attendance is great and things are moving forward with great joy. To see this is true, just visit some Sunday service (10:30AM at 17601 Fitch, Irvine).
Joel says:
Is this really so? The church goes through periodic waves of mass exoduses, each time 30-50 people leave at once. I have witnessed three of these mass exoduses thus far. During the first one, Dr. Morey preached a sermon titled “The Sin of Schism” which I have sitting here in front of me at my desk. His current blogs are all about schism and the fear of evil people trying to destroy his church. In this most recent exodus, approximately 50 people left. How can you say that there is no schism or confusion in your church when so many people have left all at once and most of these people were your key leaders? How can you say that there is no confusion or problems when the man who built and ran your “university” is now gone? How can you say that there is no confusion or problems when the man who oversaw your men’s discipleship program is now gone? How can you say that there is no confusion or problems when the man who ran the counseling program and who was administrator over the ministry is now gone? How can you say that your “attendance is great” when you have lost so many? From what I hear your attendance has dwindled significantly to an all time low. As to you being “happy and joyful serving the Lord,” well, I cannot know the true state of your heart, but the Bible says that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. So what are some of the things that Dr. Morey has recently said? This is what he says about many of the people who chose to leave his church. I will publish these comments next.
April 25, 2008 22:47
Response to Morey Part 3
Back to Dr. Morey’s comment in this OC Weekly blog, Morey said:
Just for accuracy sake, please note that biblicalthought.com/blog was not set up by or run by the church. I visit it from time to time when I have the time. But it is not my blog.
Joel says:
I think some of the main points have already been made about this. But yes, Dr. Morey’s picture dominates the rest of “the crew”. It is designed with the same colors and style of the Faith Defenders site as well as the Faith Community Church site. It is linked to the Faith Defender’s site. The contributing authors work for the church, the “university,” and Faith Defenders. Dr. Morey is the lord of the posts there. They censor out many who challenge them and when unable to defend themselves or back up their claims.
Dr. Morey said on the OC Weekly blog:
There are three new books that reveal a new phenomenon is taking place today in the church world.
1. Clergy Killers: Guidance for Pastors and Congregations Under Attack by G. Lloyd Rediger
2. Character Assassins: Dealing with Ecclesiastical Tyrants and Terrorists by Peter Hammond and Brian
3. The Wounded Minister: Healing from and Preventing Personal Attacks by Guy Greenfield
These books document that today when someone leaves a church, they do not go out and make a new life for themselves and get involved in positive works of charity. Instead, they dedicate all their time, money, and energy to destroy the church and pastor they left.
They hang around the church and use the internet to slander the church, send out malicious emails and blogs that contain unsupported accusations. They harass the people who attend the church with personal attacks and foul language. They forget there is freedom of religion in this country and people can attend or not attend whatever they want to attend.
The above authors counsel churches under attack by such terrorists not to react to these childish tirades and temper tantrums. Instead, we should remain positive and go on doing works of charity -while ignoring the terrorists.
Joel says:
Try reading the article I posted on my blog about How Ministries Abuse People. It describes exactly the tactics that Morey does to people. When people disagree with Morey and chose to leave his church he hounds after them and slanders their reputation with all manner of evil stories. The hundreds of people that have left his church over the years are all in new healthy fellowships and doing well. I am currently a member of good standing in my church. These people are not the ones who try to destroy his church and himself—he does that to himself when his sin finds him out. The multitudes of victims are now speaking out and he can’t take it. No one hangs around your church to slander and try to destroy—they run from your church for the hills. As for using the internet and sending out emails “that contain unsupported accusations,” all I have to say is that is it really believable that at least 100 people are all consorting together and lying or is it rather more believable that this one questionable man is the culprit? I have over a hundred pages of documentation and hours of video that shows the abusive tactics and slanderous lies. Dr Morey says that the people who leave his church: “They harass the people who attend the church with personal attacks and foul language.” No one harasses your people and no one especially launches personal attacks and foul language. If so, prove it. Show where I have used foul language in anything I have written. Pony up Dr. and prove it. The only one who uses foul language is you. You are the one who from the pulpit calls people “whores,” “fags,” “sluts,” “Lesbos,” “bastards,” etc. You are the one who speaks of a man “banging” and “screwing” his wife (i.e. the men doing this to their own wives, not Dr. Morey doing it to their wives). You are the one who tells dirty jokes to the men. You are the one who without a moment’s thought calls people “idiots,” “morons,” “fools,” “nimnus,” “stupid,” and “clowns.” Such is your modus operandi. You are the one who leaves slanderous messages on people’s answering machines. If we have forgotten that there is freedom on religion, then you sir have forgotten that there is equally freedom of speech and people are allowed to disagree with you and especially speak out when they are abused and lied about. You now resort to calling us “terrorists” who are throwing “temper tantrums”. You view people as stupid babies while you are the smartest man alive. You think that Muslim terrorists are all out to get you and now you resort to calling good Christians, terrorists. You have terrorists on the mind. You see them hiding in ever corner, under your bed, and in the closet. I imagine you think they also can shrink themselves and hide in your tail pipe and under your toilet seat.
April 25, 2008 22:48
Dr. Morey said on this OC Weekly blog:
These poor mentally unbalanced people, whose only meaning in life to tear down other people, will eventually burn themselves out with all their hatred and bitterness.
We at Faith community Church do not hate them or anyone else. We pray for them that they will grow out of their negativity and finds positive outlets for their energy.
Joel says:
Readers, this is one of his favorite tactics: to saddle those who leave his church with mental illness. I have seen him do this to at least five people who left his church. Now we are all mentally unbalanced and ill. If this is not slander, I don’t know what is. Listen to what he assumes about people. To assume that all these people’s only meaning in life is to tear down other people because they are filled with hatred and bitterness. Wrong again Bob, you are the one who uses people, abuses them, and then throws them under the bus when you are done with them. The problem here that you have created for yourself, however, is that you have thrown so many people under your bus, that you have created a mountain that will flip your short handicap bus. I know it is common fare for you to speak in the way I am about to, but I normally reserve such comments, but Bob you are a fool for posting here and taking this problem to this here venue.
As a dedicated Christian, I apologize to the non-Christian world for having to view this ugliness. All the people that I know of who have left FCC are now in good and healthy churches run by true shepherds who love and care about people. I will always defend the truth of the Christian worldview against any and all who oppose it, but men like Dr. Morey make this task ever more difficult. Enough is enough.
April 25, 2008 23:22
The Spin Dr. is at it again.
Dr. Morey said in his comment here:
"There are three new books that reveal a new phenomenon is taking place today in the church world."
Joel: Three "new" books? I found each on Amazon and the newest one is almost 5 years old. You can see for yourself below. What he is trying to do is make it seem like the problems he is having at his church are happening to pastors everywhere because this is all a "new" phenomena. He wants people to think that the current "schism" in his church is normal and thus they will dismiss those speaking out as "false brethren" used of the devil. Further, in light of what Mr. Arellano wrote, why would he even bring these books up? The answer: because he is doing what he always does, namely, victimizes people. He is making the victims of his abuses to look like the victimizers. He plays the "victim card" and demonizes good and godly people. That is what mentioning these books is all about friends. Don't fall for it.
Clergy Killers: Guidance for Pastors and Congregations Under Attack by G. Lloyd Rediger (Paperback - April 1997)
Character Assassins: Dealing with Ecclesiastical Tyrants and Terrorists by Peter Hammond and Brian Abshire (Paperback - Jul 1, 2004)
The Wounded Minister: Healing from and Preventing Personal Attacks by Guy Greenfield (Paperback - Jul 1, 2001)
April 25, 2008 23:41
Oh, just to back up my last comment, I forgot to mention how he says there are three new books that reveal "a new phenomenon [that] is taking place today in the church world." Yes, a "new" phenomenon.
His acutal quote:
"There are three new books that reveal a new phenomenon is taking place today in the church world."
Joel: Is it really new Dr. Morey or did you just make that up to suit your personal interests here? You claim to be an expert in church history, is such a phenomenon really "new"? Stephen says that he is going to hopefully publish book reviews on these books. Stephen, if these books at any point say that there is this "new phenomenon" taking place, totally unique to church history, then please print the quotes and page numbers where these authors say that. I am now tempted myself to buy and read these books just to see if all THREE authors actually make this sociological/ecclesiastical/historical observation.
April 26, 2008 00:20
Stephen Macasil said: “Faith Defenders and Faith Community Church are not the same organization, that is probably your biggest confusion about the BT blog. Since they are separate entities, there is no genetic connection between FCC and BT/FD. Many of BT's community have never darkened the doorstep of FCC, and many are from out-of-state/country.”
Dr. Morey said: “Just for accuracy sake, please note that biblicalthought.com/blog was not set up by or run by the church.”
Gustavo Arellano said: “I never said it was the blog of FCC.”
Gustavo Arellano said: “Earlier this month, one Stephen Macasil sported the holiest of hard-ons for FCC's blog, Biblical Thought Dot Com (yep, that's the name), warning heathens…”
In the end, truth always wins. I will tell you the truth of your eternal destiny. If you do not repent of your sin and accept Christ Jesus as Lord, you will suffer an eternal conscious torment in hell. He’s returning to divide forever that which has been prepared beforehand for his glory! As it shows above, a record can condemn. How will you pay for your record of debt? I point you to Jesus the Christ.
April 26, 2008 00:25
Dr. Morey says:
"These books document that today when someone leaves a church, they do not go out and make a new life for themselves and get involved in positive works of charity. Instead, they dedicate all their time, money, and energy to destroy the church and pastor they left."
Joel: Do these books really document this or have you assumed that no one will read these books, and assume that all will believe that you have, and blindly buy from you that these 3 books document that when people leave a church they don't "get involved in positive works of charity," but rather, these 3 books document that the people of this new phenomenon "dedicate all their time, money, and energy to destroy the church and pastor they left"? Or is it that you are using these "three" books with convenient titles to set up a situation in which you are made the victim and the real victims are made the culprits?
April 26, 2008 00:36
The Abuses of Dr. Robert Morey Part 356:
Dr. Morey says on the OC Weekly blog:
"The above authors counsel churches under attack by such terrorists not to react to these childish tirades and temper tantrums. Instead, we should remain positive and go on doing works of charity -while ignoring the terrorists."
Can I ask you Dr. Morey, what works of charity you are currently doing? Moreover, if the books counsel to ignore the "terrorists," why are you not doing so? Why do you keep responding to us unregenerate heretics who are being used by Satan?
In addtition, Morey says that those speaking out to expose him are merely "childish tirades and temper tantrums." Is that what those 3 books say Dr. Morey or is that your language? Since I have sat under you for nearly 5 years, that type of speech sounds a lot like your own phrases and not anything I would ever read in an academic book.
April 26, 2008 01:22
Stephen -
In your your last comment to Clark (your apology)I can't tell if you are being serious or if you are just being sarcastic with us. If serious, what caused the drastic change? If sarcastic, why? Please explain and clarify my confusion since given all your writtings thus far, I can't discern your tone. If your apology is serious, know that we will quickly forgive. I am not looking to win some petty argument, but to see truth and justice vindicated.
Joel Hughes
April 26, 2008 07:26
I was referencing to the discussion in this post, but I can see I erred in the past. I have no problem admitting I made a mistake (and let's just disregard the whole FCC-FT-BT connections, which make them a de facto whole entity)--when confronted with an error on your part, what do YOU do? See you in Gehenna! BTW, is the claim above correct? Do FCC members make their tithes with donations to FD? And whither Morey's mug?
April 26, 2008 09:03
I see lots of comments about FCC's leadership, but here's an important question:
Does anyone out there have any factual information about FCC or its leader(s) fraudulently misappropriating funds?
April 26, 2008 11:47
In the post of April 25, 2008 21:59, for the non-Christian readers just wanted to clarify the use of the term "cult." While the teaching of the Bible at FCC under mr. morey is orthodox and non-heretical (pertaining to essential Christian doctrine and most of his teaching) and is not opposed to historical Christian orthodox teaching, it is mr. morey's running of the church and treatment of people that is largely at issue. i.e., he utilizes many of the same tactics and schemes that classic cults take advantage of in victimizing and preying upon the innocent. But because his teaching is orthodox and because he is a persuasive communicator, many good Christians are sucked unwittingly into idolizing this predator, not seeing his schemes for what they are. For example, for about the first 3 years of FCC, mr. morey was personally taking home the "uncounted" cash donations made at the sunday and weekly services. Yes you heard that right. People were placing donations into the offering basket each service (checks, cash in sealed envelopes, and loose cash). The ushers collected the baskets and two ushers in a back room dumped all contents into a bank bag. However, they didn't do what all churches of financial integrity do. The ushers didn't count the loose cash, record the amount in a separate record, and give the amount and cash to the bookkeeper/accountant for deposit at the local bank. Instead moron took all the monies home, keeping the loose cash stored at his residence. Essentially he ran the church as his own private piggy bank. This smacks of a classic mafia skimming operation. Criminal love handling uncounted cash because it can be easily skimmed and is virtually unprovable that monies were stolen off the top. Virtually no one in the church was aware he was taking home uncounted, loose cash (except for key staff members), although it was happening before their very eyes. Even after this scheme was finally exposed and brought to light, utilizing cult tactics, mr. morey successfully conned about 240 church member into remaining at FCC, while about 60 brave souls told mr. morey they were falling for it (for the apparent schemes of a con man). This is how blinded and caught up in idolatry people were regarding morey's teaching that they were told they could not get anywhere else in the U.S. Thus, they become so fascinated by his "teaching abilities" that they make the mistake and overlook his many moral and character flaws in their lust for "knowledge." Most who've left FCC have repented of this error and some seek to now warn others (loving their neighbor) about this man's predatory tactics/schemes. At first, people think they are lone victims and show mercy to mr. morey not seeking to expose him. But recently they have learned he's been carrying on his same schemes in many states and their are countless victims. This is partly why many now desire to see some kind of justice done in preventing this man from harming one more innocent person. Thanks Gustavo for giving the people a voice. Normally Christians try to deal with these matters in private, but mr. morey has made that impossible. He has chosen this way.
April 26, 2008 11:48
In the post of April 25, 2008 21:59, for the non-Christian readers just wanted to clarify the use of the term "cult." While the teaching of the Bible at FCC under mr. morey is orthodox and non-heretical (pertaining to essential Christian doctrine and most of his teaching) and is not opposed to historical Christian orthodox teaching, it is mr. morey's running of the church and treatment of people that is largely at issue. i.e., he utilizes many of the same tactics and schemes that classic cults take advantage of in victimizing and preying upon the innocent. But because his teaching is orthodox and because he is a persuasive communicator, many good Christians are sucked unwittingly into idolizing this predator, not seeing his schemes for what they are. For example, for about the first 3 years of FCC, mr. morey was personally taking home the "uncounted" cash donations made at the sunday and weekly services. Yes you heard that right. People were placing donations into the offering basket each service (checks, cash in sealed envelopes, and loose cash). The ushers collected the baskets and two ushers in a back room dumped all contents into a bank bag. However, they didn't do what all churches of financial integrity do. The ushers didn't count the loose cash, record the amount in a separate record, and give the amount and cash to the bookkeeper/accountant for deposit at the local bank. Instead moron took all the monies home, keeping the loose cash stored at his residence. Essentially he ran the church as his own private piggy bank. This smacks of a classic mafia skimming operation. Criminal love handling uncounted cash because it can be easily skimmed and is virtually unprovable that monies were stolen off the top. Virtually no one in the church was aware he was taking home uncounted, loose cash (except for key staff members), although it was happening before their very eyes. Even after this scheme was finally exposed and brought to light, utilizing cult tactics, mr. morey successfully conned about 240 church member into remaining at FCC, while about 60 brave souls told mr. morey they were falling for it (for the apparent schemes of a con man). This is how blinded and caught up in idolatry people were regarding morey's teaching that they were told they could not get anywhere else in the U.S. Thus, they become so fascinated by his "teaching abilities" that they make the mistake and overlook his many moral and character flaws in their lust for "knowledge." Most who've left FCC have repented of this error and some seek to now warn others (loving their neighbor) about this man's predatory tactics/schemes. At first, people think they are lone victims and show mercy to mr. morey not seeking to expose him. But recently they have learned he's been carrying on his same schemes in many states and their are countless victims. This is partly why many now desire to see some kind of justice done in preventing this man from harming one more innocent person. Thanks Gustavo for giving the people a voice. Normally Christians try to deal with these matters in private, but mr. morey has made that impossible. He has chosen this way.
April 26, 2008 13:27
I have been following comments and your blog, Joel, and my heart goes out to you and others who have been abused by leaders in the church as you clearly have been. I pray God's peace on your life and the lives of all involved.
You are dead on in spotting the tactics of Bob Morey. The books he said were "new" and showing a "new thing" going on in the church today causing schism is absurd. You asked if this is going on everywhere? The answer is: NO. As a pastor and life long church member I have never seen anything like what I am watching here in my life. FCC shows all the signs of a church being led by someone whom God is weeding out. I pray that he doesn't take too many with him.
What is really horrible is how they use scripture to validate their own abusive behavior. They will no doubt claim that Jesus said it would be this way and that the world would hate us for being heralds of truth. For a couple of people who claim to be biblical scholars they should know better. That is just awful exegesis. When Jesus said the "world will hate you" he is first of all referring to the kingdoms of this world, namely, Rome. They will hate you because you will be confessing Jesus Christ is Lord while everyone else who wishes not to die on a cross will confess that Caesar is Lord. You cannot serve two masters. And, as it turns out, Jesus was right: the world hated the apostles and killed most of them because when peace and love confront evil and hate, something is going to give. It cost Jesus his life.
When Morey and Stephen and his other groupies revel in the criticism they are receiving they are using scripture wrongly. They are not humbling themselves as scripture demands and listening to the voices of so many Christians who are pointing out the obvious error of their ways.
peace,
Chad
April 26, 2008 16:22
Bob's use of the word “terrorists” is actually quite telling and elucidates much of what been reported on this blog: theocentricliving.blogspot.com. It is a common tactic among cult-leaders to use a fictionalized, outside “threat”, in order gain power over their people. Bob uses this tactic well. Especially because he sees a muslim behind every evil act mankind has ever committed and can now use the label terrorist to psychologically associate us (the blogger terrorists) with them (the omniscient muslim terrorists). According to Bob’s insinuations:
There are multitudes of muslims in their caves plotting to get Bob Morey of Irvine California, right? I’m sure they’re tapping his phones and organizing our “liars club” as we speak…Because Bob and his church is not only the center of the God’s plan on earth, he is also the central target of this great, shadowy, muslim conspiracy as well. In fact, he seems to be at the center of many evil conspiracies of every cult he comes into contact with (according his stories, that is). This would include anyone who leaves his church as well.
It is always a wonderful tool for a cult-like ruler to have a secretive group of shady individuals hatching plans to overthrow the empire at every turn. Bob has now gone to the lengths of calling us “terrorists” to capitalize on the constant fear mongering he produces about the supposed muslims out to assassinate him at any moment. This is why Bob needs to be the one to “protect” his sheep. He shields their eyes from dirty terrorist information that could “harm” them. We terrorists are basically climbing up the walls of the FCC building throwing hand grenades into the middle of the church right now, right? Yes, we really are very scary and harmful people, aren’t we?
What a way to scare people away from looking into the evidence against him. He loves to give people the impression that they will be siding with the most inhumane and vile of people if they were to begin a dialogue with those who’ve learned what he is really up to (lumping us all under the label terrorist is a great way to dehumanize us as well, giving others an immediate, negative picture in their mind). I’ve got to hand it to him, he has gotten the hang of manipulating and coercing the most basic human instincts to his advantage.
What it ultimately boils down to is that Morey cannot refute any of the arguments presented to him. He knows that he is guilty and that all he can do now is ignore specific individuals and continue his childish name calling.
April 26, 2008 16:51
Dr. Morey at FCC/BT says:
We who actually attend Faith Community Church don’t see any schism or confusion in the church. We are happy and joyful serving the Lord. Our attendance is great and things are moving forward with great joy.
Mario at FCC/BT says:
Let it be known,
There is no FCC situation going on. No alarm. There is peace. We joined together for prayer this evening and had a blessed time of hymns singing and seeking the Lord! We are not moved or shaken in the least bit! There is nothing new under the sun.
The issue does in fact lie outside the church. Festering anger turns to bitterness which is where all these attacks come from.
Stephen at FCC/BT says to "Reformed Uncle":
RU, there isn’t any “FCC situation.”
Again Stephen says:
Well, I tell you again, there is no FCC situation. We’re fine. Now, is there a situation outside? Sure, but that isn’t an FCC situation. Since there is fully documented evidence to present to any questions that may arise from within FCC’s walls regarding any outside criticism, the issue remains outside while peace, joy, and love exist and remain inside. Just ask any of the FCC members, they should be able to verify this.
[Note: Stephen has only been with the church a short while. Compare that with the comment below].
But are they being truthful...(stay tuned)
April 26, 2008 16:54
Reformed Uncle on no FCC (really no Morey) "situation"
RU: Steven, excuse me son, but there IS a FCC situation. I have attended FCC since the sequoia days, and have missed only two services in all those years up to last Sunday. Don’t tell me there is no FCC situation! For the record I was never contacted by anyone who left FCC, and outside of church property have not fellowshipped with any of them up to last week. I have been a loyal supporter of Morey for years. I’ll tell you straight up, I and many witnesses have contacted Tom Maxum, first time 1 day before the gates of hell entry, and again in person last week. Not one thing Morey wrote about him is true. He HAS moved on, IS attending church and bible study every week, and is in school full time pursuing a counseling degree. He has peace and CAN look himself in the mirror. In my two hours of fellowship with him and several other ex FCC members, Morey’s name didn’t even come up. Sorry but Morey lied and slandered him in that blog post.He has set up straw man arguments with these men as the victims just as he has in the past with his others. He talks about how great Walter Martin is in church yet slanders him on tape. That kinda ticked me off, as does many other contradictions I’ve heard out of his own mouth on tape this last 24hrs.Don’t even get me started on scripture twisting. Look, as far as the evidence I’ve seen, this man should be behind bars not the pulpit I’m afraid.
Travis, hopefully you don’t ever consider a carrier in law or get called for jury duty. There are many witnesses and hard evidence in those tapes. Also if you look at the video version of them you’ll actually SEE the evidence. Ledgers, signatures, checks, etc. It’s a very serious and dangerous situation at this point.
Steven, where is the evidence for this of what Morey said:
"Tom Maxham is not happy or blest. He has not been able to go on in his life with positive things to do and say. He is frustrated with the truth that he threw away his chance to be part of FCC by disobeying the leadership of the church. He dug his own grave. But, instead of accepting the guilt for what he did, he lashes out in pain and misery by blaming other people for the mess."
Reformed Uncle:
I’ll tell you where it is, in morey’s head. Also I don’t trust FCC’s evidence. For example the letter from Douglas Shenk in the church bulletin on 4/12/08.It was unsigned and had grammatical patterns unique to morey’s writing style i.e. starting a sentence three separate times with the word ‘but’ Also Shenk is brought up several times in Wessels DVD if you would bother to examine it. That letter would not stand up as evidence in a United States court of law my friend. Emails and letters can easily be forged in this day and age As far as eyewitness testimonies, well at this point there are more on the outside, way way more than those inside who contradict morey’s claims. We have many friends STILL attending who are very hurt and scared to leave. We talk to them regularly. Believe me all may seem well to you, but many are hurting. All is not well at FCC. I remain anonymous
to protect my family and I from the cult like behavior we see going on. We pray this man is exposed for who he REALLY is, and our friends can get out with the least amount of damage possible.
April 26, 2008 19:39
looks like someone hit a nerve. Stuff is clearing off the shelves at BT. Wonder if anyone will apologize or admit where they have gone wrong?
April 27, 2008 00:23
Re: this question earlier: "Does anyone out there have any factual information about FCC or its leader(s) fraudulently misappropriating funds?" There are some who likely have this information that funds were misused and stolen. But, will they come forward is another matter. Many of us now know that in the 1st 3 years of FCC, it is estimated moron took home about $70K in loose cash that came from the sunday and weekly service offerings. If the IRS or auditors came in and asked for an accounting of how the $70K was spent, neither morey nor FCC could give and adequate accounting for where the funds are or prove that all monies were legitimately spent on church business - assuming moron really took home $70K. However, the problem is that because the ushers never counted the loose cash and because moron took it home right after the service ended, no one can say for sure to the penny how much moron took home. Supposedly moron and FCC kept 2 sets of books. The books at his house contained the amount of loose cash he hoarded at his home. The church books represented the funds consisting of checks and cash received in sealed envelopes. He came up with the perfect scheme for which no one could ever prove whether or not he skimmed monies off the top for his personal use, in opposition to biblical stewardship, church and financial accounting integrity standards, and legal requirements. Virtually all seminary students know a pastor is never to go near the cash offerings lest suspicion be raised of financial impropriety. So moron knew exactly what he was doing. Based on the Wessel evidence against moron, one would probably conclude he was likely skimming funds from the offerings, but because of the way he set it up, no one can prove this. But he will have to answer to a higher authority (the God of heaven) if in fact he did skim. God knows how to make morey answer for any possible improprieties. Also, earlier, did not mean to imply that the 240 people who remained at FCC after the cash scheme was exposed in 2006 are stupid. Sometimes good people can be fooled, and moron is quite good at conning people. Sometimes these things happen where good people allow themselves to be conned by people they like at the time, but thankfully God knows how to shine the light at the right times to give people a chance to see what's really going on at FCC.
April 27, 2008 05:29
Folks: Gracias for the discussion, but comments are now closed at this post--continue the conversation over here and ask: why is Biblical Thought deleting posts?
May 14, 2008 10:16
Oh my gosh!! This is so immature. Very ashamed of the way you guys make accusations such as these.
May 14, 2008 10:31
So Clark, how is your "church" doing? :)
May 14, 2008 13:25
It's funny that most of what is being brought against Dr. Morey from these people especially Joel, are things that were never a problem before they personally had a problem with Morey. For example, Joel along with others never had a huge problem with Dr. Morey saying the word "fag" or "homo" before. The people complaining never had an issue with him selling his books before. BUt now they unload all of this and other things on public blogs now that they have problem with Morey.Joel said this, "I know you are just trying really hard to impress him so that he will like you and make you his right-hand-man, but I can almost guarantee you, in time, he will turn on you"
This was said to stephen i believe. How Joel do you know the heart/motives of him or anyone else being there under Morey? Is it maybe because that was your motive? I personally enjoy the teaching and have seen no hard facts that have been proven. I am there because I love all of it. To assume that a person is there for any other reason is wrong on your part. You need to repent. Clark, Joel,Dustin and the guy from Canada (sorry I forgot your name) along with others what were your motives? Did you idolize Morey? Because I don't. Our friends that have attended there don't as far as I know either.
As for the question that I ask you all reading this who have attended FCC,Where do you find such great teaching as Morey's? Seriously.....Its no secret that it is few and far between. (in California) Very rare admit it. If you have someone in mind please tell me i really would like to know. No it's not cultish thinking either. Seriously tell me who and where. I will go.
May 14, 2008 16:07
Other great teaching in So.Cal?Try John MacArthur for one http://www.gty.org/ Bob Morey is a thief and a liar.It has been proven by multitudes of eye witnesses currently, and all the way back to the mid 1990's.You want hard facts?How about ledgers, checks, documents, signatures, certified mail, recorded phone conversations, and video interviews.Contact Larry Wesels and request a DVD or listen to the audio versions here:
http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media
Six hours of evidence!Any documents in question can be reviewed by requesting copies from Larry, and he gives contact info in the tapes.Clark, Joel,Dustin and the guy from Canada need to repent of nothing.It's Dr.Bob who needs to repent of federal crimes, lying, and slander.Though we attended FCC every single week from the Sequoia Athletic Center days up to 4 weeks ago, and for the most part enjoyed the teaching, how are we in good conscience suppose to sit under a pastor with a criminal history ?
May 14, 2008 23:45
first let me address the first comment about Macarthur. I agree is an excellent Bible based teacher. Good pastor as well from what i know. I know a couple of people who attend Grace. My question was "where do you find great teaching like Morey's?" Or as he has been mocked a few times in these blogs for saying you can't find this teaching anywhere.You can't.Apologetics for one is a given. Macarthur does not teach about defending the faith like Morey. Be real. Most of the people blogging have been there for well over 5 years and it wasn't for no reason. If there was just as good of teaching other places then why were most if not all from other cities outside of Irvine? A few years back, I looked at the roster of women in the discipleship program and seen that only 1 woman resided in Irvine. That would mean that people were willing to travel long distances to attend FCC. Now you mean to tell me that this was because thier motives were wrong or they wanted to all be his right hand men? Or they idolized him? That would be a major judging of the hearts of many. Again Macarthur is great but I don't think that there is a comparison. Most of these people blogging got thier sharp debating skills and knowledge from Morey. I am not trying to exalt Morey but I want to acknowledge that GOD has greatly used him in a special way that He does not choose to use Macarthur or others that I have seen. Be honest. There are topics such as natural theology for example. I have not seen studies like his on natural theology. Nope. The Bible teaches against it but I have not heard pastors teach on it. Correct me if I am wrong please. His valuble teachings on that subject alone has blessed me tremendously. No I never found that outside of Faith Community Church. (unless of course you count the people that have left his church and use Morey's materials to teach) As ar as the documents go, I will certainly look into them because I cannot speak on them if I have not heard or read them I will post after I hear them.
May 15, 2008 10:24
sorry i rabbit trailed above. my point was that if they came from other areas to FCC then I'm sure there was something there. It was because they found teaching that they could not find close to home.
May 15, 2008 11:04
'Preciate all the comments, folks, but they're now closed. Continue the fun over here!
June 3, 2008 09:24
Beware of Stephen Macasil and his Biblical Thought blog. I was called a man pleaser and perhaps unsaved for my attempts to defend Tim Keller. It appears Stephen Macasil has an agenda to expose Tim Keller as promoting a false gospel message that saves no one. Any one with a flaming negative posting on Tim Keller can post but those that desire to say positive things about Tim Keller can post anywhere but his blog. Rather cultic isn't it or is it lack of fair and balanced attempts to seek the truth.