When is A Schism not a Schism?

• Yet another FCC member (Glenn Hendrickson) has left the church after being slandered and lied to: http://glennhendrickson.blogspot.com/2008/07/personal-update-71908.html

• I am currently putting more pdf information regarding the mid 90s REF scandal between Morey and the Wessels brothers. There is now an rss feed to subscribe to both the mp3s posted on lieutenantcolumbo and the pdf documentations referenced here. http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo The urls for each rss feed are below. The pdfs are here. http://www.fileqube.com/shfolder/10211vNiXWr?out=rss The mp3s are here. http://www.fileqube.com/shfolder/12596JtkZi#d:12596

• Becky, you said: "So really Joshua, you are saying that whatever Dr. Bob does, it's a lose-lose situation. He gets elders, and you say he's only doing that because people pointed out there were none. If he hadn't gotten elders, you would continue to point out a lack of accountability. Not really giving him a chance here, are you?" My response: Wrong again, Becky. No, it is not a lose-lose situation. It is simply a situation where I can simply observe cause and effect relationships. Morey spent YEARS and YEARS *refusing* to let overly qualified individuals become elders (even after they continuously asked him and did everything he said). All of a sudden, as soon as this became one of the main criticisms of his reign, he allows some reportedly grossly unqualified bootlickers to take the position. This cause/effect relationship cannot be reduced to me having an attitude of Bob being "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't" so to speak. He has a history of attempting to cover up his shady practices this way - I described some above.

• Morey also lied and told half truths about Eastern Orthodoxy. I'm almost finished with my rebuttal to his book. So I'm not surpized about all the things said here. JNORM888

• PDF files of the Wessels' material (documentation of Bob's shady behavior in the 90s) has also been uploaded to this site: http://www.fileqube.com/shfolder/10211vNiXWr

• Of course, Stephen Mascail attempts in that link to counter Manata's (Jim Johnston's) arguments and fails miserably. This is the effect that his utter worship of Bob has had on him. It is a sad sight to see.

• Also, see Morey's propaganda utterly destroyed by Paul Manata and Joel here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/does-morey-violate-9th-commandment-van-drunen-critique-30524/

• Much of the meda from putfile has now been converted to youtube/video format. Go to: http://www.youtube.com/user/truthseekerbobmorey Or go to this link to find all of the relevant links in one place: http://saintaugustinian.blogspot.com/2008/05/important-robert-morey-links.html

• So really Joshua, you are saying that whatever Dr. Bob does, it's a lose-lose situation. He gets elders, and you say he's only doing that because people pointed out there were none. If he hadn't gotten elders, you would continue to point out a lack of accountability. Not really giving him a chance here, are you?

• Bob has now "ordained" some supposed "elders": http://glennhendrickson.blogspot.com/2008/05/sunday-morning-church-notes-52508.html. This is another tactic he often uses that I already pointed out on Joel's blog. When certain deeds of his are exposed in a widespread manner, he silently makes plans to rectify the complaint in order to be able to point to the new situation when the complaint arises again. Let us remember the pattern: - Bob read Joel's email to a FCC member about his lies, slander, abuse, etc. He latched onto an off the cuff remark at the end of a sentence at the end of a paragraph where Joel highlights the notion of Bob never having written the book he has been talking about for years and years now. Soon after, we see libelous comments being left about Joel, Tom, and Clark on his blog. The supposed evidence of their "sin" was "them" saying that he is not writing his book. This then prompts him to post on the blog a page or two of error-filled, scribbled notes, supposedly from the book. He hears of objections to his reign, rectifies the particular problem when word gets out in a widespread way, and calls the objectors liars. - Bob also engaged in this behavior regarding the church funds and his home safe. Bob was taking uncounted cash home twice a week into his own private safe. When some found out about this he attempted to threaten them into silence. Only when word of his shady behavior began to get widespread (over a year later), he supposedly changed this behavior and the money was brought to someone else's safe. He now labels objectors liars who report his shady monetary dealings. - Now we have the situation of his new "elders". Bob has put off getting elders for years and years. He had many opportunities to ordain qualified individuals but instead drove them away with his gossip, slander, theft, and lies. Now that word has gotten out about his corruption, Bob has decided to counter one of the most glaring objections to his imperial reign by rectifying the problem after the fact. No doubt we will all be called liars now for having ever reported this. Bob will stand in front of his congregation and grandstand about how he has proven us terrorists to be frauds. I just hope those still in attendance have some concept of time and are capable of seeing this cause/effect relationship. You'd have to be blind to not pick up on what he is doing here. I have no doubt that these �elders� are bootlicking yes-men, chosen only because they would seemingly not speak out about his wickedness. The situation hasn�t changed. The birdcage liner has been re-arranged in order to give the appearance of cleanliness when in fact it will probably produce more dirt than ever.

• Yes I do agree it is disturbing to see people act in this way. Some people, they don't realize it, and it eventually fades. Some people are vehement and either end up with their focus far from God or castrated from FCC. I would take it one step further and not subscribe to any such titles. I even prefer Reformed to Calvinist.

• I have to admit, I posted my comment about halfway through all of them, and had I read the last few, I would've seen that this issue was already partially addressed. So thank you to Joel and 1MoreEX-FCC for recognizing that. I do hope that others follow suit, from both ends of the morey loyalty spectrum and in between. It is true that many people at FCC are just in the dark. People just swallow up everything Morey says. Not just because of idolatry, but also laziness or no reason to believe otherwise. Has it not been pointed out that Morey does a good job of ensuring that, if all these claims are indeed true? So not just by demonizing Joel, but also any one who follows, people lazily lump them together. It is really sad. I've heard people wrongly assume things about people who've left. Even if people leave at the wrong time for completely different reasons, people will assume it is related to the schism and mark them the same as those in the spotlight. What needs to be realized is that many don't know of these blogs at all. A lot of people have only visited BT because it was advertised and they want to see what's up, but they don't read regularly. I bet a lot of the readers don't attend the church (as Stephen as stated). So ask the average attendee and they'll tell you there was a schism, b/c i've only seen Morey say there isn't one in this very blog. No one knows about any cover up, they think it's just old news. Guess it's working.

• Mouse, I agree with you in that it is possible to attend FCC and not be a Moreyite. I was one of those. I always considered myself a "Bahnsenite" for better or worse depending on what you think of him. However, there is a substantial difference between a Moreyite and a Bahnsenite. A Bahnsenite is someone who adobpts the methodology in apologetics and worldview thinking that Dr. Bahnsen taught. A Moreyite is of a different breed. Since Morey does not really have an apologetics system, or really any system for anything, it is very difficult to adopt any methodology he uses. A Moreyite then is one who adopts the attitudes, words, and style of Morey. Probably most people at FCC are not really Moreyites like this. But most of the people on his blog, in my opinion, are Moreyites in this way. On the one hand they praise and kiss up to him in frightening ways; on the other hand they imitate his ways and dealings.

• There should be some dichotomy made between moreyites and other FCC attendees. It has long been that those obsessed with Morey, either because reformed theology and tough-love is all new to them, or for whatever reason if they have been around a long time, have been called moreyites. This is by those within and outside the church. It isn't really fair for those against Morey to call anyone who doesn't agree with you moreyites. There are varying degrees of opinion. Anonymous May 15 22:30 is the first person I've ever heard admit to be called a moreyite. It's very sad when I meet those people. It is possible to attend FCC and NOT be a moreyite. To those not against Morey, it'd be kind of you to show the same courtesy and not lump in all those against him either. There are those who have been directly involved in the schisms (mostly former leadership), then there are their friends and other who were indirectly involved or heard things 2nd or 3rd hand. To not make assumptions, we should all clear stear of "you all" statements. It will assist in keeping this a friendly atmosphere and everyone with a clearer head so their heart can find the truth.

• I want to add to what "oneMoreX-fcc" has said here. My (our) contention is not with the people of FCC--including the bloggers at BT. Though, in my opinion they have caused great offense and thrown much fuel on this fire by their careless words and attitudes, I extend them mercy and will forgive any and all in an instance. I consider them still my brothers and sisters in the Lord. Our contention is primarily if not solely with Morey. What I want to avoid is a battle between exFCC members and current ones where hearts grow hard toward other people and the possibility for regained friendships become very difficult. I am thankful that people at FCC are taking the time to read these various blogs and audio files, and at least consider the evidence. I receive secret emails from people at FCC who have just left or who are leaving because they are taking this stuff seriously. To date, none of our accusations have been refuted. In fact, they have not even been challenged. The few challenges that we have received are on miniscule and peripheral issues.

• Hopefully most fcc people still attending realize that when x-fcc people at Joel's blog, Gadfly's blog, an oc weekly blog make comments about the blind FCCites and the lies/slander being made about those who left FCC (following God's prompting most likely), it is not a broad brush attack against all FCC attendees. The one's guilty know who they are. Most FCCites are good people who simply want to grow in knowledge of Word and sanctification. But unfortunately, many are unaware of morey's true issues. Hopefully he repents one day and make due to those he's offended. By His mercy and Grace He opened x-fcc people's eyes to FCC issues and dispersed them to new churches to be cared for by new shepherds. The x-FCCrs can only pray God open the eyes of FCCites in His mercy as to who the real dr. morey is. FCC people - pray to God asking Him to reveal truth about FCC. God will be faithful to that prayer.

• there's a guy over at this blog http://glennhendrickson.blogspot.com/2008/05/sunday-morning-church-notes-5408.html#links who still attends FCC. at least he didn't follow in the footsteps of those at Biblical Thought Deletin Inc. who've been deleting and not allowing some posts to be put up. He's allowing some posts on his site that challenge them to look at the evidence on morey and make up their own mind. shared with him that ex-FCCrs can only pray God opens the eyes of FCCites in His mercy as to who the real dr. morey is. we can only urge people to pray to God asking Him to reveal truth about FCC. God will be faithful to that prayer. When people at Joel's, Gadfly's, an oc weekly blogs make comments about the blind FCCites and their subsequent lies/slander about those who left FCC (because God took them out of there), it is NOT a broad brush attack against all FCC attendees. The one's guilty know who they are. We know most FCCites are good people who simply want to grow in knowledge of Word and sanctification. But unfortunately, some are unaware of morey's true issues. Generally, only those who work with morey closely see many of the things bloggers alude to in the blogs and in the audio files at putfile. Hopefully he repents one day and makes due to those he's offended greatly. By God's mercy and Grace He opened our eyes to FCC issues and dispersed us to new churches to be cared for by new shepherds. May God's mercy and grace somehow fall upon mr. morey. no one is beyond the gospel's reach. no one is beyond God's grace and mercy.

• I found an interesting site a few weeks ago. Many of us have heard of the late Keith Green. I know he was instrumental in my early Christian walk to inspire great zeal in me. But apparently he too was guilty of some abusive practices to his people and on this site I found a letter is posted that was written to him by many of his followers listing his abuses and calling him to repent. How did this well known public Christian leader respond? Total public repentance! The site shows his letter of total repentance and sorrow and he admits his faults and asks for their forgiveness. This really inspired me, and though Green may have had his problems, he won my admiration all over again. Unfortunately, I do not remember where that site is. I found it by doing a google search under things like "abusive pastors" etc.

• thanks Teal'c. that link on abusive churches was enlightening and easy to understand. If that article is a good measuring stick, then FCC qualifies as a place of Morey Abuse. new people are now checking the blogs to see what's up in the latest chapter of the FCC saga. God keeps giving us more information to help others see the truth about the FCC situation. Praise Him for His kindness in taking His own (the ones He bought with a price) out of FCC in to churches better suited for their care and nurture.

• Here's a great link from Battered Sheep Ministry regarding signs of abusive churches: http://batteredsheep.com/faq_healthy_fellowship.html This is one of many articles on abuse. Also check out "9 Marks Ministry" -you can google to find it (sorry, I don't remember the URL :(). Check out especially an article entitled, "9 Marks of a Healthy Church."

• Joshua said: We do it, however, because we feel that remaining silent about such a dangerous man would make us complicit in his crimes. Josh, we hear that! It's great people finally speaking up about morey's indefensible actions. God's justice always prevails, but yet so does his awesome mercy. That reminds us of this Scripture from Proverbs. �Whoever is a partner with a thief hates his own life; He ??swears to tell the truth, but reveals nothing.� -Prov. 29:24. i.e., Sometimes people refuse to expose what's going on at FCC for FEAR of incrimination or some retribution that may come their way (i.e., from morey in form of lawsuit, get fired, trash your good name, cast you out of his cult, lose friends...). Or maybe they fear loss of hearing praise from morey or loss of being morey's lap boy like maybe some boys at Morey's BT Deletin. People who knew better stood by when morey trashed people's good reputations, and did nothing to expose morey, did nothing to hold him accountable. But at least now many fessed up that they were caught up in his magical mystery tour. Heck, we all make mistakes and can only praise God for His mercies toward us, otherwise we'd be like dust in the wind.

• a lot of people wonder how people fall under the FCC/morey spell. A couple things: 1. �We are deceived by those we like, we allow ourselves to be deceived by others, especially those above us that we look up to.� - Dean Gotcher A number of mind-manipulating cult leaders may exhibit many of the behavioral characteristics of a sociopath--an outstanding ability to charm and seduce followers. Since they appear apparently normal, they are not easily recognizable as deviant or disturbed. A sociopath is someone who is seemingly normal, but actually CRAZY. They say O.J. Simpson was classic example of one. What to look for in spotting them?: (some have seen many of these in the FCC situation. This is not to say bob is a sociopath, only that others have observed these same things at FCC) -They are charming and smooth operators who know how to con people. (morey can be a likeable guy when you first meet him, but so can many mafia wise guys. A lot of people give morey a pass because they feel he comes off as such an intelligent, brilliant communicator. Well guess what, the same can be said of many mafia guys and crooks.) Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. They are captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally. -What people don't understand is that they often don't recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims. -They feel entitled to certain things as "their right." They crave adulation and attendance. They must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the "enlightened," "leader of Christianity" or leader of this or that. They create an us-versus-them mentality. ("all other churches out there have cream-puff teaching. no one is as good as FCC. FCC is the best man. We don't give you cream-puff." -People engaged in abusive actions like morey usaully have no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. They can create, and get caught up in a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. They tend to be extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests. -Often they have a deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed at their core. They do not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and it's not unusual that they let nothing stand in their way. O.J. didn't! -When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Not unusual for them to be outraged by insignificant matters, yet remain unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises (e.g., appoint elders). -While they talk about "God's love" they generally are unable to give or receive it. Since they do not believe in the geniuses of their followers' love, they are very harsh in testing it from their devotees and expect them to feel guilt for their failings.- (Make them write letters of apology or go on their blogs and backtrack for speaking out against FCC edict that they not read blogs etc. about morey.) They expect unconditional surrender. -Often these con men live on the edge, yet test the beliefs of their followers with bizarre rules (a contradictory constitution that says you have to find multitude of witnesses in church before you can bring charges against morey), punishments and behaviors. Verbal outbursts/attack on other's character can be are normal. -They usually unable to emphasize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Their skills are used to exploit, abuse and exert power. (even people at CRI warned people to stay away from morey because he was on a power trip, but people ignored the warnings). Since the (FCC) follower cannot believe their leader would callously hurt them, they rationalize the behavior as necessary for their (or the group's) own "good" and deny the abuse (when he publicly cuts the throats of others with excommunication, slander, lie). When devotees become aware of the exploitation it feels like a "spiritual rape" to them. How many fell raped by morey???? -They demonstrate at times rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval to produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. They believe they are somewhat all-powerful, somewhat all-knowing, entitled to almost every wish, with no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. The followers only see them as near perfect, allowing themselves to be easily duped. (typical moreyite: no one is smarter than dr. bob man!!!! he leaves all other pastors out their in the dust. he can do no wrong man! you guys left fcc because you aren't saved man, you're full of pride. We can delete the posts if we want to man. the end justifies the means man. don't bring down dr. bob man. he's the only one battling islam man. they're trying to kill him man. look it even says so on the back of his self-published book man.") -They usually have a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, childhood abuse, yet "gets by" by conning others. They have problems in keeping friends; aberrant behavior include cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. -Like many politicians, they are not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blame their followers or others outside their group. The blame reinforces passivity and obedience and produces guilt, shame, terror and conformity in the followers. -They tend to move around a lot or make all encompassing promises for the future. Support is expected by gifts and donations from the followers who are pressured to give through fear and guilt. -They change their image or name of of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and to increase income and to recruit a range of members. Is able to adapt or relocate as needed to preserve the group. Can resurface later with a new name, a new front group and a new twist on the scam. 2. in talking to many ex-fcc people, they will tell you that they got lured into attending fcc because of what they thought was good teaching that at the time they didn't think they could find anywhere else (although if they really tried much good teaching is out there). Because they became so fascinated by the apparently great teaching (which some have come to find out that low and behold morey's scholarship in some areas is questionable as are some of his alleged degrees), they admittedly would overlook morey's many wrong actions so they could stay at FCC and "get the teaching." That's why many didn't aask others who got their throats cut by morey what their side of the story was. They put their lusts and desires above what was right. Some of us recall when one couple brought their mother out from Canada, she told them both, this is a cult (apparently Holy Spirit revealed something to her), but they ignored it. When Mario (of Biblical Thought Deletin Inc.) brought his his mother-in-law to FCC, she and/or her friend both reported back that "Morey has no love." (as in 1Corin. 13). They, likely through holy Spirit saw something terribly wrong in morey. Or maybe it was that woman's intuition? The point is that many of us had intuitions that somthing was amiss at FCC and with morey's actions, but rejected them in favor of "getting the teaching." Idolatry. Well God showed us mercy and grace by taking us out of there, so pray same for those still there.

• BTW, i don't think Gustavo's motive in enabling these blogs on Morey is to make Christians look bad. I think more likely either someone or others possibly have been in contact with him about Morey Abuse, and/or he's been monitoring the situation and saw it a good fit for his publication. In the former, i think he simply has agreed to help expose morey who needs the exposure. It's that simple. He just offered to help out with the situation. So thanks again Gustavo for letting others know about "Morey Abuse." Wouldn't it be something if some well known pastors rode into town and told bob to get out of town by sunset? Never know, it could happen. Hopefully he patches things up with all before such event. His unmitigated actions have traumatized many, resulting in financial, emotional, spiritual other problems for them.

• Clark, yes you, we, many made mistakes under the FCC/morey spell so-to-speak. The important thing is that we now acknowledge it as you say, be in state of forgiveness with God and submission to His will, and at least do something in the present in loving our neighbor (protect others if possible from morey) and exposing what many feel are works of darkness or at least very wrong actions on morey's part (ephes. 5:11). Hopefully we do the right things, if not God will let us know and we adjust. So thanks for putting that into perspective for everyone. Some have even said that if they find out morey picks up and moves to another town/state to start church or parachurch ministry, they will personally fly there to warn the flock about morey's past in hopes they be spared future abuse. But hopefully by God's grace morey will see the light and make amends to all. God can work things to good - Rom. 8:28 No one is beyond His mighty touch, His mercy and grace. No one is beyond reach of the all-powerful gospel that we are not ashamed of for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...Romans 1:16 But how will they believe unless they hear about Jesus and unless someone preaches it to them so they can hear the Good News - Romans 10:9-15

• GobStopper, Your argument is akin to one asking the Apostle Paul where his outrage was when Stephen was being stoned. Though Saul (Paul) was complicit in Stephen's murder he later repented and mourned over his sin. Should Paul have not written most of the New Testament, and left the world without some of the greatest and most influential writings ever, because he was once on the side of evil? While you are correct in pointing out that many who now object to such base behaviour by Morey at one time (at least passively) approved of it, you discount the fact that we have acknowledged our wrong and have turned away from it, as did Paul. Should everyone who has done wrong (including you, Gob) refrain from standing for what is right and good? If your answer is yes then we should all (including GobStopper) just go home, shut up, accept the evil around us, and wait for death. Thankfully, One has come who is not duplicitous and has made the way for sinners to walk the right path, and has atoned for when they walk the wrong way. This is why we speak against Morey and why we call him to follow the Christ he proclaims yet denies with his actions. To be blunt, your argument will only ring true with those who don't realize that the finger they point points back at themselves.

• Out of the frying pan and others who are concerned about the dialog on this site regarding Morey. It is very telling how high and mighty you suddenly become and critical of the behavior of those posting. Undoubtedly you heard Morey stand in the pulpit and call Christian men names like "Hank Handicap" and "Roman Geisler." Where was your outrage for this behavior? You are very selective in your outrage and piety and I am not impressed. So save it for someone else, because you are not getting much mileage here.

• Calvin's Knuckle: Of course they deleted it. You questioned their Leader: Lord Morey...AND you wouldn't let them "flip it". Wow! A double whipping for you! Now you've got to accept the punishment you deserve, you demon-loving antichrist. Why don't you at least post your terrorist comment on here so that many can still read it. To any and all Moreyites who may be lurking about: [1] I'm still waiting for at least ONE person to study *all* of the evidence which has been provided and [2] for a cogent, *argumentative* explanation of why the evidence that has been presented is irrelevant. Otherwise, please be more responsible and reserve your judgment until you've done the necessary research. Do not go public about your unsubstantiated assumptions, condemning other Christians for doing something that is brave. It isn't *fun* to think about this, let alone attempt to reason through these issues with you folks. We do it, however, because we feel that remaining silent about such a dangerous man would make us complicit in his crimes. He is making a mockery of Christianity and unbelievers can now see that we "terrorists" who oppose him are against this hypocricy. That doesn't damage the reputation of Christianity - it restores it.

• I posted a lengthy reply to Mario, Jean, and Daniel LAST NIGHT over at BT on Mario's post about epistemology. In that one I called for Morey to come out and deal with what I was saying. They did not let it through. They are still deletin'

• Out of the Fryin' Pan says: Only by the grace of God have I seen the truth about this man, and that is the only way that anyone else will. Praise God He opened your eyes Fryer. All Christians blogging need to KEEP praying that God opens more eyes of those still caught under the spell at FCC. Many ex-FCC people have been praying this for the last few years. And now we see the results, exoduses continue to come out of FCC where God is dispersing people into new chuches run by pastors with genuine hearts. God is sovereign and His providential timing is before us to see. In various Scriptural accounts, in both OT and NT they wrote about the "warts" of fellow brethren. They didn't try to hide things. Still though, we ought to remember too that God shows us great mercy (Psalm 103) every day and we therefore ought to show mercy where we can to others we deal with in our daily dealings. But in this case, don't forget Micah 6:8 (God expects justice, mercy, walk humbly). It seems by God's sovereignty, justice is having its say. I doubt anyone foresaw the blogs coming to pass as they have. No one got together and dreamed up all that's come to light on the blogs and on websites re: morey's issues. When Morey first slandered two people from the pulpit in 2006, virtually everyone left them to hang out to dry in the wilderness. Hardly anyone asked them the other side of the story. When morey recently cut the throat of the two couples who served him faithfully how could people continue to stand by and say nothing. They could not. A predator had to be punched in mouth good and hard. While this isn't good for the public to see this laundry, God will work things to the good - Romans 8:28-30 Trust in Him as always. And what does the Lord require of you But ?to do justly, To love ??mercy, And to walk humbly with your God? - Micah 6:8

• I am ex FCC, and I agree with the former anonymous poster. Gustavo, your obsession with Robert Morey is disturbing. I think that you only seek to expose him in order to try to make all Christians look like fools. While he has engaged in evil and sinful behavior, this does not excuse your own sin. While he is a deeply flawed man and not fit to be a pastor, I pray that Morey's sin is covered by the blood of Christ. Gustavo, where is your cover? Anonymous, even without digging into the facts too deeply, I think that after an honest look at three obvious things, most people understand that Morey is in sin. 1. the way that he constantly self-promotes from the pulpit, inflating facts and manipulating evidence to make himself look good. I used to dismiss this as just humorous "puffing", but it fact it is not good natured at all, and it does not reflect a godly character. The scariest thing that I found out over time is that if he is confronted with something he says during one of his puffing episodes, he will defend it up and down instead of just admitting that he was exaggerating or joking. That is the mark of either someone who is seriously mentally ill or a pathological liar. 2. the way that the ministry is run "fast and loose", with little regard for propriety or transparency. This should be obvious if you stay and give money there a while -- good luck ever understanding how the finances or administration are run. Even better luck if you actually want to change anything. I used to think this was the result of disorganization, but recent events led me to know that the disorganization is an intentional smokescreen that keeps people at arms length. 3. the way that Morey rules with an iron fist. All of the men who have been people that others trusted, who ministered and counseled, have ultimately had their throats cut and been discarded for the wolves. Morey is an absolute authoritarian who uses the Bible to justify all of his personal actions, even when he is betraying those who have sacrificed dearly for him. I used to think that he was just being and "elder" and administering "discipline", but now I know that he is on a power trip. In the 5 or 6 years that I knew the man, I never heard himself personally and specifically repent for any of his words or actions against anyone. While I lament the fact that this dirty laundry is out on the internet for everyone to see, we must remember that it is Morey who refuses to wash his clothes. I don't think that BT deleted everything because it was unprofitable; they deleted it because Morey personally wrote horrible things about people on there and he was being called on it. Instead of publicly repenting and apologizing to those people, he tried to defend what is indefensible. Then when it was shown to be indefensible, he ignored it and tried to cover it up. Christians, if you have likewise committed sin in your dealings with people in and out of FCC, do not go the way of Bob Morey. Repent and apologize for even the "minor" wrongs. I know Stephen, for example, and I do not think that he is a bad guy. He is just under the spell, and I was for many years. I gave thousands of dollars, did everything Morey told me to and believed most of what he said. Only by the grace of God have I seen the truth about this man, and that is the only way that anyone else will. So lets extend the grace that Bob was unwilling to extend to us.

• Anon, this is blog posted previously where it alluded to that no one desires to print morey�s dirtly laundry for all to see, and that this is not about Christians squabbling over petty matters but serious slander, lies etc. perpetrated by mr. morey against others. Wasn't it he who started the fight? Proverbs says to stand up and defend yourself. That's what they are doing. http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-that-oc-religion/arrogance-thy-name-is-robert-m/ For the non-Christians that may be reading these blogs, thanks to Gustavo for doing his part in aiding those seeking to expose mr. morey and see that justice is done. Ephesians 5:11 of the NT says Christians are "to expose the works of darkness (evils) in this present world. This is to be done especially when they occur in the church as sometimes con men work their way into positions to prey on innocent victims. Second, biblical Scripture commands to "to love thy neighbor...," which includes warning them or predators out to do them harm. There just happens to be a set of DVDs and CDs put together by the Wessel (sp?) brothers of Texas who testify they were one of mr. morey's victims. Bloggers at Joel site know the links to these items. They interview numerous individuals who likewise testify to be victims of mr. morey. The set includes documentation to back up their allegations against mr. morey, who they term a con man. The accounts leave one with the distinct feeling that mr. morey is a con artist, thief, liar, slanderer of Christian saints, and that he moves from victim to victim in his consistent schemes over the years in numerous states. In trying to live up in part to the aforementioned Scripture, the ex-FCC Christians desire to expose mr. morey's schemes, tactics, lies, slander et. al in the interest of justice, hoping that there will not be one more person in the United States who falls victims to the documented wickedry of mr. robert moroney. This is not a case of Christians debating each other about the division of a church over the meaning of a passage or some such silly thing. Many of them have been victimized by mr. morey and in loving their neighbor hope to warn them to run as far away from this man as they can, lest they fall into his trap. mr. morey's unrevealed secret in how he keeps people in his cult is that the convinces them their is "no where else (church) they can go to get his quality of teaching" They willingly gulp this down, allowing themselves to fall into blindness, thus the reason they turn their head and ignore his wickedry he practices on many people. It is sheer idolatry of mr. morey that blinds them to the truths many have brought forth that shine the light on mr. morey's dark schemes according to documented testimony from the Wessel information and from the recent exoduses that took place at FCC.

• anonymous said: I don't care how much you all think that you are "exposing" mOrey Anon, Did you ever hear the story about the professor showing a student a garden that happened to be full of weeds, and was therefore unfruitful? The professor pointed out all the many, many weeds in garden. But the student arrogantly said, "I don't see any weeds, I don't see any weeds, I don't see any weeds. [Don't bother me with the facts. I want to be an irresponsible person]." Is this what you are doing anon when you say what you say. I don't understand you? anon, tell us, why is it that when some people left fcc, they were told by Cindy and others, "where else can you go to get this teaching. There is no where you can go." (see below note on this) Wrong Cindy!!! You were wrong telling people that then and you are still wrong. Get a clue. Anon, at this link on oc weekly, http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-that-oc-religion/arrogance-thy-name-is-robert-m/ we already covered that no one wants morey's laundry to be publicly dealt with. But he asked for a fight and he's getting it. He better learn that when you throw a punch, expect to get punched back. He was negligent in opinion of many by not appointing elders to hold him accountable for wrongdoings. What's he gonna do when some of the well known Christian leaders come down to have a little talk with him, telling him to get out of the hireling business because he's embarrasing the faith??? Is he gonna cry like a little boy? or resign and leave everyone alone, basking in the earthly reward he thinks is coming to him? Anon, if memory serves, do you recall that MR. MOREY seemingly BOASTED from his FCC pulpit that when he retires, he wants to go to Saudi Arabia to preach the Gospel to members of Islam? Do you feel that when he shuts the FCC church down that he will keep that apparent convenant, that promise he made? I bet there are members of islam who would buy him the ticket to go and do that. Do you think morey will accept the free gift?

• Looks like the killer bee hive over at the BT blogs are getting their panties all in a bunch once again... Mario Herretica seems to be wanting some poster named 'Calvin�s Knuckle' to reveal his secret identity. Mario's quote: One last time� tell everyone who you are and what church you belong to. This is not an attack on you, just a simple request for you to stop with your immature behavior, the fake cycling of names, and identify yourself. Wonder if the "one last time" is so kinda stern threat? Looks like mario's fixin' to go taddle tail. If the commenting gets anymore heated, you can bet this blog title will be next on the chopping block! http://biblicalthought.com/blog/epistemology-and-truth/#comment-5552

• as i have said before i have not been able to comment on the "documents" or whatever evidence that there is said to be. After I do then I will decide for myself and can comment on it. My decisions are apart from Morey or anybody else. This is why I have not commented on it.I will not until i have examined them prayerfully. I have only listened to a few and have not heard anything against him. But I will continue to listen to them. My position still stands as before though this is a horrible way to discuss things and should not be displayed. I don't care how much you all think that you are "exposing" mOrey but the world looks at this and mocks Christians not Morey. Ya they may mock MOrey but ultimately it is only something else they will use to slander the Lord. Especially Gadfly's blog. It really is in bad taste. It's really immature I hope that he takes it off. I hope that all of this comes off. It really grieves me. Especially seeing all of these men that I respect so much and enjoy thier teaching and this is what happens? Ya, I will listen to them and then no matter what the verdict is I am done with this commenting. Whether or not the evidence is for or against him, and no matter where I end up I am done with this. Nobody gets anywhere with it. I see why others have stopped. There is a good reason for the silence from BT.No edification whatsoever.

• Glad to hear from you again, Slappy.

• Glad to hear from you again, Slappy.

• I second Joshua's comment. Rather than continually trying to "flip it", and get the focus off of Bob. Why not, just for a while, FOCUS on Morey and his sin? I totally agree with Joshua, where are your arguements? Can you disagree or agrue against any of the evidence put forth by Joel and others? If so please, please let us all know. I want to know the Truth, as do many others. Come on, I dare you to refute it!!!!

• FYI: The Good people at http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media have added six more mp3s to their archives: 1. "Critique Of Dr. Robert A. Morey's Book Islamic Invasion by Christian islamic Experts Waleed Nassar And James Beverley." Parts 1 & 2 2. "Dr. Robert A. Morey Fraudeulently Accuses Jim Toungate Of Confessing To Criminal Theft." Parts 1 & 2 3. "Dr. Robert A. Morey's Shabby Debate With Khalid Al-Mansour (Highlights)". Parts 1 & 2

• Joel making an off the cuff remark about Stephen is completely irrelevant. You are making a skyscraper out of a molehill and attempting to "flip it" in order to take the attention off Bob. You don't want to talk about Bob's crimes. This is what everyone over at the always wonderful "unbiblical thought" enjoys doing. Instead, you wan't to talk about Joel's brief comment. Why don't you discuss the evidence that has been presented? I have yet to hear somebody *actually* listen to all of the audio (http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media) and read Joel's blog (theocentricliving.blogspot.com) and Clark's letter (www.bobmorey.com) who can respond to all of the points raised in a rational manner. All we get is name calling and side issues being brought up. Oh and a favorite of many Moreyites is to call us unregenerate and apostate (taking after their leader, of course). You are following in their footsteps. Why not honestly go through all of the information before coming on here and judging Joel and the rest of us apostate "terrorists"? Don't you think that is an irresponsible way to handle this situation? Either research this issue completely or remain silent is what I have to say to you. If you say you don't have time to research it all then you have no buisness getting involved. And if you do actually research it, please provide an actual objection if you are going to disagree. All I hear are vague statements about opinions after Moreyites supposedly look into the info. They never provide *arguments* - only bare assertions. Please give an argument for why the mountains of evidence are irrelevant and we "terrorists" are in the wrong here.

• Anonymous said: I am telling you as well as others on this blog are doing this in a wrong way. John calls the Diotrephes strategy both "wicked" and "evil." Morey has employed the Diotrephes strategy on numerous people who either attend fcc or used to attend fcc. see article on it to better understand why ex-fcc people speaking out against morey. http://www.thefaithfulword.org/diotrephes.html many fcc attendees, based on morey's proclamations, cut off contact with the saints who were attending or used to attend. We know many have repeated morey's lies and said bad things about those who left due to God opening their eyes to the real mr. morey. What else do you expect them to do in order to wake you guys up that you're being conned by an expert (in morey0. do you think they take joy in this? they have better things to do but obviously God put on their hearts to stand up and defend themselves aagainst morey's outrageous slander and lies, and hopefully to prevent others from becoming his victims.

• just wanted to build on what Joel said above re: "truth and division." Think for example about the importance of understanding theological doctrine. In the Christian world sometimes people seek to examine competing views of the Scripture to see who's view is closer to the truth. Unfortunately sometimes teachers confuse their interpretation of the Bible with the Bible itself. That is, they sometimes make the mistake of substituting their interpretation of Scripture (influenced often by their presuppositions they've aquired throughout their life) for Scripture itself. In these matters it is always good to seek the LORD for wisdom. Jesus himself provided a perspective on this: Jesus replied, �Believe me, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father here or in Jerusalem. You Samaritans know so little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation come through the Jews. But the time is coming and is already here when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for anyone who will worship Him that way. For God is Spirit, so those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.� -John 4:21-24 What this means to Christians: True worshipers are not identified by a particular shrine or location, but by worship of the Father through the Son, from the heart. As for worship in spirit, it�s not an outward activity like when the Jews worshiped at the Temple. It�s not just showing up at church each week to go through the motions, or external conformity to religious rituals and places. Spirit here refers to human spirit with the proper heart attitude. It�s to be done with the heart engaged in what we are doing. This kind of worship is motivated by a soul that delights in the presence of God. A person takes delight in this. God delights in a soul that is on fire for Him. To worship in truth means that they are not in a state of ignorance, but worship with knowledge of what we�re doing, worshiping God consistent with the revealed Scripture (God's revealed truth). Truth gets at who God is. God is the one, true God. Doctrine both unites and divides people. Some people accept the truth and some do not. When Christians understand basic doctrine, they can be even more knowledgeable about God and His ways. Christians know God by knowing His Word, and by knowing correct doctrine. They don�t want to worship based on heresy but upon the truth of the things of God (worshiping from a position of heresy would be idolatry). Thus, they want to worship ideally from a pure heart and an informed mind. In summary, the idea is to have a heart on fire for God. And a mind filled with the knowledge of God. Both things! So yes, when ex-fcc people BRING OUT the TRUTH about mr. morey's dealings, it will result in division. Truth both divides and unites. Those united agree that truth seeker bob gets himself involved in very shady activities, including the spreading of lies about people. The blind moreyites still at fcc cannot accept the truths being brought out. But that is their choice. They will learn the hard way as others have. Thanks again to Gustavo/OC Weekly for the platform to make possible some truth to get out about Truth Seeker bob of fcc infamy.

• to Joel- why are you making light of "miniscule" sin? Comparing your sin to others does nothing for you. I am not talking to MOrey I am talking to you and if your goal is to expose him because he is wrong. Then that is a different issue. I am telling you as well as others on this blog are doing this in a wrong way. you are judging people's hearts as well as being unloving to people that claim to be Christians that have done nothing to you. If your beef is with Morey why are you saying things about the members. They are your brothers and sisters right? why are you talking bad about them? It is just really poor in taste what you are doing. A lot of the comments made about Morey are immature. also i did quote you on the previous page you should look at it. As far as your comments to stephen the same applies. You can try tp explain all you want but you are judging his heart. You have no evidence of his motives because you can not judge the heart period. You can't. It's wrong. Needing to repent of something small is still needing to repent. Your obedience to the Lord should not depend on others. You should take your sin more seriously. Thats pretty elementary.

• There is so much ungodliness with all of this I don't know where to start....I know you will point to Morey but I am talking about this very Blog. Let me start by saying that (another FCC member) said this.... "The morey and the moreyites will all simply blindly follow each other. Morey needs and craves the adoration of the moreyites. The moreyites desperately want to worship at the feet of their all knowing and wise master. This is a sad, but true picture." You are telling me that I want to desperately worship at his feet because of course once again you know my motives. That is why I go to FCC. Ya so that is a " miniscule" skin so I guess you do not need to repent of it according to Joel. OK thats fine.

• Grieved: I am grateful and humbled that you liked my teachings. I loved teaching there or anywhere for that matter. But about my comment. In my opinion, from what I have seen, there is almost a new breed of Moreyites and they have sunk to a level that I have not experienced before. I have all the blogs saved that they deleted and as I read them, it both scares me and saddens me. I still stand by what I said about Stephen. I know how things work over there and I know how Morey manipulates people to gain their loyalty. I have seen so many good friends divided by that man. When I said what you quoted I was speaking to Stephen on a personal level. It was after he was acting and speaking in a very un-Christian way because he was--or at least appeared to be--trying to imitate (and in my opinion defend and impress) Bob. Bob is just a man. How many people does it take for others to take our charges seriously? Like I said Grieved, if you can show me that I am wrong on this suspicion, I will come here and on my blog and publicly repent to Stephen for assuming something about him that is not true. But I have all his words from all the blogs over at BT and the evidence would indicate otherwise. Listen. I love to teach the Bible, I love to encourage other Christians, and I am utterly humbled that God has let me do so. But if you respected me then and took in the various (actually many) teachings that I did at that church, why will you not listen or even consider what I have to say now? Do you really think that I am all the awful things that Morey has said about me? Do you really think that I am a wolf in sheep�s clothing? Do you really think that I was just a puppet of Satan all along? There is a "Table Talk" CD set by Dr. Morey where he says that he guards his pulpit very carefully and only lets the most trusted people in there to teach his congregation. I taught there Sunday mornings for him, Monday nights for him, Sunday Seminaries for him, led agape feasts for him, etc. So did Clark, Tom, JAMES MULRONEY, and Mike. The man ordained me along with Clark, James, and Tom. Please...are you really listening to what I am saying? Am I displaying the hatred, bitterness, and rage that Dr. Morey accuses us of? Do you really believe that we could all go from his men who ran his church, his trusted men, to instantly almost overnight become agents of the devil? You said you enjoyed my teachings. I am truly humbled. In all this I have not changed. I am the same man I was then. Whoever you are, if you profited from my teachings then, then listen to my teachings now. Read what I have said in my blog posts. Just read it. Read it carefully and slowly and pray while you do. I say again, that what I mention on my blog is the tip of the ice berg. If you wish to contact me directly, or if anyone does, you may at: Theocentric7@yahoo.com

• okay I guess i will start from the bottom of the page up. To make a quick reply to you Gustavo the term "Moreyites" Dr. Bob thought of. He has used it in sermons before as he told the congregation to come over the years to the apologetics study not only when he teaches but when others teach as well because we are Christians not Moreyites. It was not as full when other people would teach. Not that it really matters but just for teh record.

• Moreyites--why didn't I think of that??? Makes them sound like one of the countless tribes the Israelites smote way back when. And here, I was using the lame "Morey's minions"...

• The morey and the moreyites will all simply blindly follow each other. Morey needs and craves the adoration of the moreyites. The moreyites desperately want to worship at the feet of their all knowing and wise master. This is a sad, but true picture.

• "I know you are just trying really hard to impress him so that he will like you and make you his right-hand-man, but I can almost guarantee you, in time, he will turn on you." That sounds like you know something as a motive. Correct me if Im wrong. Anyway, I enjoyed your teachings very much at FCC Joel.

• Hello Jean, Is that all I have to repent of? If so, according to all the slanderous accusations leveled against me by Bob and his crew, then that is not so bad. Ok, let me try to rephrase what I was saying (a quote would have been nice also). I and many others see so much kissing up and brown nosing by Stephen and so much ugly imitation of Morey's language, attitudes, and antics that it sure really really seems like Stephen is trying really hard to become Morey's new bull dog. It's not just me who sees this but a whole bunch of other people also. But if I can see some alternate evidence to make me think differently, well then, yes, I will publicly repent. I have no problem doing that. I'm also a little confused. You said that if Morey is guilty of all that I say, does that not mean that I still do not have to repent? Are you still referring to me having to repent toward my allegedly judging Stephen's heart or because I have spoken out to expose sin? One last point. I find it interesting that when Morey or his crew or his supporters actually try to engage many of us, they can only address miniscule issues that are virtually irrelevant to all the massive charges that are being brought forth. I will give you four examples. 1. Morey comes on here and brings up three irrelevant books and then calls people names. 2. Stephen comes on here and only debates that there is a difference between the BT blog and Faith Defenders ministry. He would not get off that band wagon--even after sufficiently answered. 3. A friend of mine (I hope he is still my friend or will be someday again) emailed me and said that he had two points that would utterly destroy my whole argument. First, he said that it is not true that I was blacklisted from the church there; second, he said that Dr. Morey actually did read my resignation letter contrary to what I said. Ok, for arguments sake, even if I conceded these two tiny points, they are irrelevant to our main arguments that Morey is a compulsive liar who twists scripture and abuses his people for his own benefit (among other things). 4. Jean you come on and call me out for this miniature "sin" of judging Stephen's heart. This is how the great apologists work. Whether you believe me or not, my sincere goal is not to create further division. Dr. Morey often said that not all division is bad anyway, since the TRUTH often brings division. If the many of us telling the truth causes division, it is not ou fault.

• Jean, Since when is a "He hurt my feelings" statement such as, "Stephen�s motive was to impress Dr. Bob...", comparable to a Morey statement such as, �I do not consider the �Legion of Doom� members, (eg. Joel, Clark, Tom, etc.) fellow-Christians. As long as they continue to run their �Liars Club,� they give no evidence of regeneration. Is that not the very point you just made in your comment, regarding judging the motives of ones heart? Is not Mr. Morey guilty of the very sin you just accused Joel of? You are correct on one point, I�ll give you that. We all will give an account on judgment day. That being said, I sure would not want to be Mr. Morey on that day giving an account for the public statements that were made about Joel, Clark, Tom, etc. being unregenerate/anti-Christs. Woe to you Truth Seeker Bob, Woe to you! ~joey

• Jean, you are really funny. This is better than stand-up comedy. When mr. morey lied and slandered about people from the FCC church pulpit, did you tell mr. morey what you just stated above. substitute mr. morey in your sentences and you will be on the right track. "[mr. morey]...need to repent of nothing? actually...[mr. morey] does. As i quoted already he said that [Clark, Tom, James M., April M., Lenny, Javier, Joel and many others'] motive was ......that is what [mr. morey] said read it if you need to [at oc weekly's, joel's, thesaintaugustinian's blogs. and see audio of evidence against mr. morey at http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media]. that is wrong. so actually. he does need to repent and anyone else [at FCC} who decides to judge the hearts and motives of believers ...[who left] FCC [in good conscience because God opened their eyes to the shady actions of mr. morey the con man]. Unless of course you think it is ok to judge the heart?" [jean] Jean, have you asked God yet (sincerely) to reveal to you who mr. morey really is and what he's all about? He will you know. If not, don't waste our time please.

• jean- another comment i would like to address is joel and the others need to repent of nothing? actually they do or at least Joel does. As i quoted already he said that stephen's motive was to impress Dr. Bob so that he can be his right hand man......that is what Joel said read it if you need to. that is wrong. so actually. he does need to repent and anyone else who decides to judge the hearts and motives of believers at FCC. Unless of course you think it is ok to judge the heart? And if Dr. Bob were guilty of all accusations made, does that mean that Joel does not have to repent? Last I checked we will all give an account for what we say and do. No matter how wrong you guys are or at least how wrong you guys are handling this, I will give an account of what I say and do when I stand before God. Likewise on the day of judgement you all will not be able to point any finger at me, Dr. Bob or anyone else for that matter. Because God is holy, true and rightous. He will not care what your excuse is.

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